The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Episode 1 · 8 months ago

#144 - Bill Tancer: Reframing Haters And Negative Reviews, Learning From Data Analysis, CGMs For Weight Loss, Predicting Glycemic Response, Healthy User Bias, Search Habits & Trends, Influencers, And More!



2:15 - IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life: Join Melanie's Facebook Group At For A Weekly Episode GIVEAWAY, And To Discuss And Learn About All Things Biohacking! All Conversations Welcome!

2:30 - Follow Melanie On Instagram To See The Latest Moments, Products, And #AllTheThings! @MelanieAvalon

3:00 - AVALONX SERRAPEPTASE: Get Melanie’s Serrapeptase Supplement: A Proteolytic Enzyme Which May Help Clear Sinuses And Brain Fog, Reduce Allergies, Support A Healthy Inflammatory State, Enhance Wound Healing, Break Down Fatty Deposits And Amyloid Plaque, Supercharge Your Fast, And More! AvalonX Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers And Common Allergens (Including Wheat, Rice, Gluten, Dairy, Shellfish, Nuts, Soy, Eggs, And Yeast), Tested To Be Free Of Heavy Metals And Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Order At, And Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At

6:00 - FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App At To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More! 

6:45 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Non-Toxic Beauty Products Tested For Heavy Metals, Which Support Skin Health And Look Amazing! Shop At For Something Magical! For Exclusive Offers And Discounts, And More On The Science Of Skincare, Get On Melanie's Private Beautycounter Email List At! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz:

10:35 - Bill's Background

13:40 - Data Collection

15:50 - What We're Searching On The Internet

19:45 - What People Search Vs What We Admit To Searching

22:20 - DRY FARM WINES: Low Sugar, Low Alcohol, Toxin-Free, Mold-Free, Pesticide-Free, Hang-Over Free Natural Wine! Use The Link To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

24:00 - How To Interpret Data Correctly

28:15 - Confirmation Bias In Algorithms

29:00 - How Does The Internet Change Our Trends

31:20 - Imperfect Information

32:05 - Perfect Information

33:00 - Perfect Information In Interpersonal Relationships

32:30 - Takeaways From "Everyone's A Critic"

38:40 - Chef's And Bad Reviews

39:50 - Asking For Reviews And Earning Good Reviews

43:30 - Reviews On Amazon

47:20 - Influencers

48:30 - Honesty In Influencing

50:25 - False Hope Syndrome

56:25 - Extreme Diets 

58:00 - Lifestyle Changes And Intuitive Eating

58:30 - FEALS: Feals Makes CBD Oil Which Satisfies ALL Of Melanie's Stringent Criteria - It's Premium, Full Spectrum, Organic, Tested, Pure CBD In MCT Oil! It's Delivered Directly To Your Doorstep. CBD Supports The Body's Natural Cannabinoid System, And Can Address An Array Of Issues, From Sleep To Stress To Chronic Pain, And More! Go To To Become A Member And Get 40% Off Your First 3 Months, With Free Shipping!

1:01:15 - Creating Signos

1:05:00 - Diet-Heart Hypothesis And Cholesterol

1:06:10 - Bill's First CGM

1:07:45 - Data Analysis In Signos

1:09:45 - Predictions In Glycemic Response

1:15:45 - Intuition About What Will Spike Glucose

1:16:50 - Bio-Individuality In Sucrose, Glucose, And Fructose Digestion

1:18:10 - Enzymes, Cravings & Metabolic Syndrome

1:19:45 - Is There Healthy User Bias In Signos Data

You can find data to confirm your hypothesis. Your hypothesis may not actually be true, and I fell into the trap very early on of a confirmation by us. I just became obsessed with all of the things that people type into search engines and what that can tell us about who we are, what we think about, what's important to us. It's really just a fascinating these different diets we've been covering all these years. There's a chance you're going to lose the weight, but maybe or another trusting or real issue, which is, how do we help you loose the weight you Chi? Welcome to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcasts, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secret of health, mindset on jevity and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes, and we experience from implementing the tactics mind hearing. Are you ready? Let's do welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Friends, I am so delighted to be here today with Bill Tancer for so many reasons. I am so honored to have all of the incredible guests that I have on this show, but sometimes they really connect with them and form friendships beyond the podcast, and bill has really become that. And what I love about bill and his work is it spans such an array of cool topics. Not only is he a New York Times best selling author with books, but he also founded the company's signals, which helps make CGM's continuous glucose monitors available to the public. You guys know I am so obsessed with this. If anybody has ever created a product or something where they have to deal with reviews, read his book. Everyone's a critic. I promise it will make you feel so much better about potentially negative feedback or reviews you make it from people. I was really excited to sit down with bill because I had been on his show. I realize that we really perceive the world a similar way and I feel like we could talk about anything and everything forever. So I was really curious to see where this episode would go, in particular because there are so many topics to cover, and I really love the way that it ended up. I think you guys are going to have a really fun time listening. The show notes for today's episode will be at Melanie avaloncom slash click. So please enjoy. Please let me know what you think. And My facebook group I have biohackers interpritted. Fasting plus real foods plus life. You can actually win something from me if you find the pinned announcement post about this episode and then comment on that post something that resonated with you from this episode. Then, if you want to win again or give yourself a better chance of winning, check out my instagram, Melanie Avalon. Also find the announcement post there that I post on Fridays. Again, comment there to enter to win something that I love and friends, people do not take me up on this. Only a few people usually enter every week on both of those so you have a really good chance of winning. And what do I normally give away? Usually it is a full size beauty counter product. More on that later. Super Thrilling, exciting announcement. Are you ready? Okay, I know I've been talking a lot about my magnesium supplement. I've been getting so many questions from listeners about when will it be available. Update. I keep talking about how my magnesium is going to be the best on the market. It turns out there are multiple forms of magnesium and when you're buying your traditional magnesium supplements it's hard to know the quality if you're getting all the magnesium that you need, if you're getting it in the forms you need. That's why my magnesium spectrum eight is going to have eight, yes, eight, forms of magnesium, but that eight part is where the exciting announcement comes in. It will also have activated forms of cofactors for magnesium, which are B six and manganese, as well as being in a glass bottle to help support the health of both our bodies and the environment. So here's the exciting update. I had been saying that my magnesium was going to contain magnesium three in eight, which is a special type of magnesium that specifically crosses the blood brain barrier, so can really be great for sleep and stress and relaxation. So here's the thing. I realize that the amount that would be in a blend would not be the full potency that you really need to experience the benefits of magnesium three in eight, also because if it's relaxation and sleep inducing qualities, maybe not everybody wants magnesium three and eight all the time, or maybe they just want to use it at night. That's why we switched out magnesium three and eight for another awesome magnesium. So there will still be eight forms in the magnesium spectrum eight, and then we are going to have a magnesium nightcap that will be just magnesum three in eight and therapeutic to Moses. So if you're the type that really wants to add to your magnesium and support epics, sleep and relaxation, you can really tailor your magnesium supplement to be the way that you need. You'll get the magnesium spectrum eight for all of the amazing benefits of magnesium help restore your bodies levels of magnesium, and then, if you want that extra special sleeping boost, you'll get the magnesium nightcap. We're going to release it a little bit after the foundational magnesium spectrum eight, but when you order magnesium spectrum eight at our launch we're going to have a special that we're still figuring out, but it will probably give you a a discount on our magnesium...

...three and eight nightcap. When that launches so many exciting things, especially because so many of us are depleted in magnesium. Today, our soils are depleted in magnesium and so it's really hard to get the amount that you need. And Magnesium is involved in over three hundred insomatic processes in the body. That means basically almost everything you're doing needs magnesium and you're probably not getting enough of it. My magnesium will be free of all common allergens, like we dairy, shellfish, soy, eggs, even rice, which is very, very common, and a lot of supplements, including many magnesiums, on the market, and it will also be tested to be free of toxins like heavy metals and mold. You guys want magnesium spectrum eight. I can't wait to release it. It's coming soon. I promise to get all the information, especially so you don't miss the launch when I anticipate it may sell out. Get on my email list. That's at avalon x dot US email list. And of course, you can buy the magnesium spectrum eight a magnesium nightcap when they're available at avalon x dot us, and you can also, of course, get my Serrapepta supplement, which is live at avalon x dot us. Another resource for you guys. Do you at all struggle with food sensitivities? Like I do. If so, you've got to get my APP, foods and guide. It's a comprehensive catalog of over three hundred foods for eleven potentially problematic compounds. These are things you may be reacting to like gluten, Lectins, solicillates, soul fights, Thi alls, Histamine, oxalates, whether or not something as a night shade and so much more. It is a top ITUNES APP right now it's number twenty two, and the itunes food and drinks charts, like te swift, you can learn about the compounds, create your own list to share and print and finally, take charge. If your foods in citivities. You can get it at Melanie avaloncom. Food since guide. And one more thing before we jump in. Have you cleaned up your diet and environment? Have you cleaned up your skin care and make up? Did you know that Europe has been thousands of compounds found in conventional skin care and makeup due to their toxicity? These are endocrine shoptors which mess with your hormones, obesigens which can literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens linked to cancer. Do you know how many of these compounds. The US has band eleven. It is so, so shocking. And on top of that, there's essentially no regulation, meaning these products can be on the shelves and the government does nothing and can do nothing about it. That's why it's up to us to vet and choose brands which support our health. That is beauty counter. They may it so, so easy to easily switch out all of your products and not only reduce toxins into your body, but actually see incredible changes in your skin. I am obsessed with their c serum and overnight resurfacing peel, and they also have lines for every skin type, counter time for anti aging, countermatch for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone and counter start for sensitive their makeup is incredible. Check on my instagram to see what it looks like and it is high definition camera ready. Tina fey or all beauty counter makeup when she hosted the golden gloves. That's a pretty big deal. Did you know, for example, conventional lipstick is often high and lead and that the half life of lead is up to thirty years? That means when you put on some lipstick thirty years later, half of that lead might have left your bones. It is so, so shocking. And these compounds build up in our system and, ladies, when we have babies, a huge part of those toxins go straight through the placenta into the newborn. You can shop with me a beauty countercom Melanie Avalon, and if you use that link something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's it, Melanie avaloncom clean beauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, including samples, so definitely check it out. And you can join me and my facebook group clean beauty and safe skin care with Melanie avalon. People share product reviews and their experiences and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well, and you can win multiple times. People have trust me. Join it into every week and I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, without further ado, please enjoy this wonderful conversation with bill tancer. Hi, friends, welcome back to this show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation that I am about to have. It is with a really super awesome person who has become a good friend of mine. We've talked on the phone and through email and I've been on his podcast and this man is doing really, really incredible things in the world of continuous glucose monitors, which I know a lot of my audience is pretty familiar with. But something super cool is his background is just very cool. It's in all things data and interpreting consumer behavior and he has two books. He is a New York Times best seller. So the first one in two thousand and eight was called Click, what millions of people are doing online and why it matters, and then his second book in two thousand and fourteen was everyone's a critic, winning customers and a review driven world, and I will say that second book was really helpful for me personally, because I sometimes struggle with reading reviews and interpreting them and knowing how to best use them...

...for my health and sanity. So that book was really helpful. But what's really cool about bill is he has such a cool background and I'll let him introduce himself a little bit more. Especially after talking to him and being on his show, I feel like we sort of interpret the world in a very similar way and so I just have so many questions to talk about on today's show, but he has been featured as a guest on ABC's two thousand and twenty. He's been on Good Morning America, CNN, Fox. Is this news? All the things? So yes, Bill, thank you so much for being here. Thanks so much for having me. I am so excited for today's show. To start things off, could you tell listeners a little bit about your personal story and, Oh, what led you to what you're doing today? Like, have you always been super fascinated with data? Because I don't think like a ten year old is like my passion is consumer behavior, like you know. Well, maybe it is. You might be a surprised. I don't know that the fascination was consumer behavior, but it's as far as I can remember. Remember back I've had a fascination with pattern finding, pattern fighting, pattern and numbers. It's kind of an embarrassing admission. This is going to be a little bit of a confessional today, just to give you an idea of how obsessed I was with like numbers, going all the way back to when I was in high school I went to science camp. Let's kind of embarrassing. I won the talent show at science camp by reciting Pie, the two hundred digits. Know you didn't, I did. Oh my goodness, that makes me so happy. And everyone was like why are you doing this? And in terms of like, Yep, these kids, other kids were singing, they're doing normal talent things, but I'm like no, there's something beautiful to pie and while it's in a rational number and there is supposedly no pattern to all of those numbers, I kind of felt like there was and I just I did a few weeks leading up to the talent show, just memorizing those two hundred digits. Can I ask you two questions about that? Yes, one, do you still remember? No to how do we know Pie doesn't end? Eventually? I don't know that we really know that. I mean there's there are theories and as far as we know it's in a rational number and by definition they don't end. But I'm always open minded. I never say never and I never say always, so you never know. Okay, these are the things I think about. Yes, these are the things that keep me up, and I too, but this, this is my go you know, starting from childhood, has just up so obsessed with finding patterns and things, and my career did start off a little bit strangely for a consumer behavior expert. I started off as a prosecutor in the United States Navy. I was kind of an interesting beginning. And Yeah, I did that for a few years and then was transferred to a Naval Medical Center and in California, where I was told I was a hospital attorney, and I did that for a little while and then got out of the navy and while looking for a job as a as a prosecutor, I took a job just to make some money to pay rent with an ISP and this was Prett web, so like one thousand nine hundred and ninety four, and was selling tellnet and go for access to the Internet. And that's where the fascination with wow, there's so much data that's going to be available to people like myself to analyze to see what we can tell about people when they go online and they use the Internet. Actually, I was reading another book yesterday and it was talking about how the Internet but people were skeptical that it would actually take off because the idea of like a huge data collection thing just didn't make sense, which is so talking, because we can envision our lives without the Internet right now. So did you see that like leading up to the Internet, did you predict that it would be what it is today? No, I mean, I'm going to be very honest with you about all of the predictions I've gotten wrong. I did get a lot right, but I got a lot wrong. I I remember using the Internet. Is actually I think I started using it when I was in the navy and at the time it was a version of the Internet called millnet and I was one of the only ones that would use it on my base. And so to get an email message to Washington DC, I had to type my message, download it to a floppy disk, call the communications center. They would send a jeep to my office, drive it to the calm center, send it via Millnet to DC and then the round trip was the exact opposite. So it was like a week almost, you know, is as long as it takes to send a letter across the country. And I thought to myself,...

...there's no way this is catching on, this is crazy that there's nothing, nothing really groundbreaking about this. But then as I started to get into tellnet and go for access and I remember showing people, I think it was recipes for German chocolate cake that you get on Gopher. I would just go around a random people and say, look what you can get on this computer. You can actually do. You know what's crazy? I was googling German chocolate cake last night. That's a true statement. I was googling the difference between German chocolate cake and there's another one that's like chocolate cherry. Oh, that's the black forest kick. Let me guess it's coconut right. So black forest is cherry and then German chocolate is open. I remember. I think you had like Caramel and yeah, but it's just it's so interesting that you know the Internet is just such a part of our life and in your book click appropriately enough, you analyze, you know what people are actually searching for. I was wondering, because that book was written in Two Thousand and eight do you still revisit that topic of what people are searching for in the Internet and what that means? I do now. Unfortunately, the data set that I had access to then no longer exists. Just they yeah, they couldn't maintain it, so that that data set we were or I was, monitoring about ten million Internet uters users US and twenty five million worldwide through a company that I was a part of and all that data was anonymized and it was all anonymous as well. That set was sold and then whatever. I don't know what happened, but I think that that data set was closed down at one point. We got all of our data through agreements with ISPs and are and using their proxy servers to aggregate an anonymize the data. That being said, there is still a way that not only I can, but anyone who's listening can, dive into Internet searches a little bit, and that's by using a tool that google has called Google trends. I use that actually. Oh so there should be like a surgeon's general warning message with this, because once you start, you can go down the rabbit hole. And this is exactly what happened to me right before I decided to write click as I had access to all this data and my job at the time was to just use the data strategically and help companies market their goods by looking at how people searched on things. and One night I just decided, I think, that first dive into the data, I looked at diets and how people searched on diets, and about eight hours later I realized I hadn't slept and it's time to start the day again, and I just became obsessed with all of the things that pipe people type into search engines and Google specifically, and what that can tell us about who we are, what we think about, what's important to us. It's really just fascinating, like, what were some of those things that you learned about who we are? Well, you know, it's another embarrassing confession. I became famous for my obsession over Prom dresses and the very early days, and when I say that, what I found in the data, I think at the time we had a client. Can't remember that the fashion label that was the client, but they marketed their prom dresses from March to May and I just hadn't be looking at the data and preparing for a presentation that I was going to give to them the next day and I just used our tool to to look at the time series of searches on Prom dresses and I found it actually spiked in January, and so this particular label was missing out on when girls were actually searching for their prom dresses. And I remember going in to present to them and they looked at me like I was crazy. They said no, no, anyone who markets prom dresses. Now it's march to me. That's when you buy your search terms, that's when you do your your ad campaigns, and so I showed my charts and it turns out that no one, in terms of advertisers, was getting traffic on these terms during that period of time. But yet the Internet had changed consumer behavior and so girls, just at the beginning of the New Year, we're actually trying to figure out what they were going to wear in May and marketers had no idea. And there's this real inefficiency in the market. I found it wasn't just prom just as it then I expanded to engagement rings and when people search for cars and you name it. I I could find an inefficiency in the way that we as marketers thought people searched and how they actually searched. I was really actually interested by you were searching, when people search for porn and the implications of that and how it relates to like, wait, Sundays was Sunday's the most, Sunday was the least. Yeah, the actually the time.

I don't know if this is still true, but Sunday maybe that we've just still have some Friday was busiest. Then Saturday, thanksgiving, was the least and Sunday the least. Yes, yeah, yeah, to be the whole porn thing was fascinating because I had access to this data. Other than search terms, I could actually look at traffic to sites and I knew what was happening in terms of traffic to adult sites and I could tell those patterns. But then at the same time it's it's crazy to me that the federal government actually fielded this survey, but they fielded a telephone survey where they're calling at people at home and asking them, do you go to adult websites? And based on that research they I think they concluded that it was like just a fraction of a percent of Americans, because I think it was a US survey we're going to adult websites. Yet my data showing that it was almost, I mean it was as a fair chunk of the Internet Day was devoted to adult website searches. I think in what we could see there's just people didn't want to say on a survey, and this is one of the challenges with surveys. And here I found another fascinating opportunity is that a lot of market research up to that point was based on calling people and asking them what they did. What people say they doing with the actually do can be different, especially in cases like this. No one wants to admit that they're going on an adult website. I remember I spoke, I had a keynote at a conference. I started the sprite when the book came out and I asked the entire audience, by show of hands, how many people go to adult websites? Does anybody raise their hand? Well, I asked that question over about ten different keynotes, and they're pretty large keynotes. I would say we were talking somewhere between ten and fifteen thousand. Only had one guy raises his hand. It was the sound guy at one of the big conferences. Yeah, and nobody could see him right because he'd be up in the sound booth. Here's in the back of the room. Yeah, but that was it. That was it. And then, you know, I'd asked that question, then I'd show the chart showing not only the volume but the trends, the fact that Sunday was the least and that these days had the highest traffic and Thanksgiving was the lowest, and people just you could tell they were just so amused by this little window and to how we truly behave versus how we say we behave. Friends, you guys know I love wine. Do you love wine? I've done a lot of research on wine and I truly believe there are a myriad of health benefits. The longest lived populations drink wine. The polyphenols have a ton of potential health benefits, activating anti agings, RTU winds, potentially supporting our immunity, maybe even encouraging weight loss. Yep, it's actually not alcohol that makes people gain weight, it's what they eat when they drink. But if you want all of the benefits of wine, the type of wine you're drinking is key. Conventional wine in the US is often full of toxins. We're talking things like pesticides, mold and additives, dyes, colorizers, artificial flavors. Have you even seen some wine that says Vegan? That's because conventional wine isn't even necessarily Vegan because of the additives. I am obsessed with a company called dry from wines. They're not a wine producer, but rather a wine investigator. They go all throughout Europe and they find the wineries practicing organic practices and then they test those wines to make sure the wines are, wait for it, low alcohol, low sugar, free of toxins, free of mold and truly supportive of your health. I'm obsessed with dry from wines. One of the most fun things for me as a wine lover is you get mixed boxes of wine and it introduces you to varietals from all over the world. The wines taste amazing and you can say goodbye to hangovers. If you think you can't drink wine, you've got to try dry from wines. I am obsessed. You can get a bottle for a penny, yes, a penny. Just go to dry from winescom Melanie avalon and use the cupon Code Melanie Avalon to claim your pen bottle. That's drive from winescom Melanie Avalon. All right. Now back to the show. Do you know it was just like a yes or no question, or was it a more elaborate survey, like what days? And it didn't go into days? I believe it was pretty basic and it was just a yes or no I was just thinking that. You know, let's say it was slightly more elaborate. So people who actually said that they do and tell you which days would presumably be more like they would have some sort of character trait, probably like an honesty character trait. I'm just thinking about how when you have a set of data, and you talk about this in your book, about how you can have correct data, but that doesn't mean that you interpret it correctly. I'm just overwhelmed. My brain right now is overwhelmed thinking about having a set of data and how do you know what factors to consider and what to take into account and how do you find truth and interpreting data? It's such a great question and and I would have to admit I stumbled in the beginning because, and here's a problem with massive data sets, that you can come up...

...with a hypothesis and if you've got a massive data set like I had, you can find data to confirm your hypothesis. Your hypothesis may not actually be true and I fell into the trap very early on of just falling into the trap of a confirmation bias. I had this wild theory, I fell in love with it, I got into the data set, pulled some charts, found the charts that confirmed my hypothesis and called it a day, only to realize later that I was so, so wrong. I remember this goes back to I was I was writing a column for Time Magazine after my book came out, and this is back in two thousand and eight and there is a recession going on back then and there was this theory that in tough economic times women were more likely to buy lipstick because it was an affordable luxury. And this theory actually went back to World War Two, that when times were tough during the war, cosmetic manufacturers saw a spike or surge and lipstick sales. So all I did was go and look in search terms and say, okay, if that's true, I will chart lipstick over time. And sure enough there was a chart that showed just such a strong correlation between what was happening with the economy, is actually a negative correlation, and the sale of lipsticks. And I thought proven and I had typed up my column was about to send it when I thought, you know, let me just check this one more time and I looked at the search term and the variations in the search term. At the time there was a debate happening and it was between Barack Obama and Sarah Palin, and at one point the term lipstick on a pig was used and that caused this massive search not on lips sticks but on the phrase lipstick on a pig, causing this this false positive for my hypothesis and that that was really a turning point for my analysis because at that point amongst my team, I instituted internal peer review, which is I'm going to come up with a theory, I'm going to pull the data that I believe confirms my theory, but I'm going to give this out to all of you and whoever on my team that could find something that actually refuted my hypothesis. That person was incented to do that. It was kind of a nerve racking thing to do, but I was so happy that we decided to do that because it really brought some rigor to this. So yeah, I guess the short answer to your question is that when you're dealing with really big data sets, you just have to step back at times when you think you found something that confirms what your your beliefs are, and see if there's any way of refuting it and if you can get other eyes on it, because confirmation bias is so strong it really can blind you, and I guess that's really the spirit of the scientific method, you know, trying to disprove your own theory or hypothesis rather than prove it. So like when creating computer algorithms or ai to predict things, do computers run into that issue? Well, computers probably don't have a confirmation and bias, but it's still possible in the engineering of that Algorithm to produce something that's maybe not the most efficient way of accomplishing the objective that you have so I would say not the algorithm itself, but the way it was designed is probably just as open to confirmation bias. Is the traps that I fell into speaking about that. The Prom dresses in the trends and you said that basically the Internet was affecting consumer behavior. What is the role of people and their trends and their behavior and their searches, independently happening organically in the world and then when it comes together on the Internet, how much does the Internet change us as well? Like is it a given take? Does one effect more than the other? Is Now the Internet there driving factor for trends? What are your thoughts on that? So the answer is yes. There's this concept that actually crossed over both of my books and it's an economic concept and also a game theory concept of perfect information, and I would have to give credit to Stephen Lovett and Stephen Dubner and their book free economics first introduce me to this idea, and I think it was in that book they talked about how the Internet had changed some industries and they use, I think real estate is one example that, with the advent of the Internet, consumers were more and more than had more, more information and that information when... got to the point that was near perfect information. Their argument went, what was the really need for a real estate agent? There was, because there's a lot of complexity that goes into actually all the paperwork. People can still buy and sell homes by themselves, but the industry did change a lot. I think a better example would be travel agencies, which have almost disappeared. That having all this information at our fingertips gives us the ability to get to near perfect information, for example, on price of airline tickets. If you're thinking of of you know, flying, maybe a trip to London, you can, with just a few keystrokes, compare air fares across multiple airlines. You can do all sorts of things in terms of adjusting days and times and get the best price. You needed a travel agent before the Internet existed to do that. There's no way you're going to be able to do that yourself. And the cool thing is the advent of the in the Internet has allowed us to do things like that now, just like the irrational number and pie and whether or not that number ever ends, I don't don't believe that I could be wrong. I don't believe that will ever get to truly perfect information. And the working title of my second book, before we decided to call everyone's a critic, was imperfect information, because as this information builds you find biases that just start to express themselves and information, especially when you talk about reviews, and the early days were like this is so amazing, I can find out everything I want to know about this particular product or service before making a decision. But then I started to realize there's things like fake reviews, there's differences and perception, there's misinformation, there's an accuracy, there's all sorts of things that will always, I believe always, almost always, I just said. I would never say always. We almost always are battling to get to that perfect information. I think we'll get close, but there will will be challenges for us to be to get there. And so just to define perfect information, that's basically where you know everything you need to know right in order to make a decision. So the economic principle of perfect information against sum things like rational human beings is that sometimes, to make an argument, and economic argument, you would make an assumption. Let's say both parties have perfect information, they both know everything there possibly is to know about a transaction. Then we can figure out what the appropriate decision should be given that information. I was reading your book while watching Queens Gambit and I was like, Oh, perfect information. I was also a member of the chess club. While I of course I love chests, growing up I had a I had one of those boards that you could play. It was a computer and you could play yourself like a physical board. Yes, so fun. So we could never have perfect information and interpersonal relationships right? Interesting? Yeah, I don't think. Again, I would never say never always, but I think it would be difficult to get there just because how complex people are, because you can never know what the other person is thinking right, even if people are putting out all the information you possibly think they could. And there's other there's other schools of economic thought and behavioral economics is really grown in the last couple of decades and that that whole school of thought is fascinating to me, and that is that I'm a big fan of Danna really, and especially as book. Predictably, a rational is that people do behave or rationally. So even if you have perfect information, you might think you would be able to predict how people behave, but that's assuming that people act rationally, and oftentimes we find they don't and because of that irrationality, even if you had all the information you possibly could, it's still hard to predict how someone's going to behave. I will say, though, for listeners, if you at all have any sort of business or activity or passion or anything then involves engaging with reviews, to definitely get everyone's a critic because you will feel so much better and it's so fascinating some of the the things you talked about. And if this is things that I think I like. If I had it writ your book and You would ask me to guess, I think I probably have thought about long enough, probably would have guessed some of these things. It's things like a review, like a positive review, but with bad grammar like does not help compared to a potentially negative review, but with really good grammar and some situations can help. And then you talk about like certain words. What were some of your favorite takeaways that you want learned writing that book? Well, I think the favorite takeaway, and hopefully you got this out of that book. To back up a little bit and the preparation for everyone's a critic.

I interviewed a couple hundred different business owners and a similarity across most of those business owners is the moment I mentioned reviews, like Yelp or Amazon Review or trip advisor. The immediate response was I hate reviews. I hate them because they're just they're so inaccurate, people don't know what they're talking about. I just don't read them. And then, almost without fail, the person would quote back to me their negative review, a negative review, like verbatim. So it was clear to me that yes, they did dislike reviews, but they also did read them and they were in some cases paralyzed by some of their negative reviews. So to me it was just fascinating how much of an effect it had on individual as, I would say, especially chefs, chefs and authors, or probably the most affected of anyone. The behind seen story of why I wrote. Everyone's a critic, as I got a lot of great reviews on Click, but I had like two or three two star reviews and I can even remember someone said this book is an exercise and Navel gazing. On Amazon there's a couple of other mean reviews and even though that book did well and it made the New York Times best seller list and I was like traveling the world on speaking tour, I was so upset about that one to star review. I have no idea who this person was, but it stopped me from writing for like two, two and a half years, and so finally, when I decided to write another book, I was talking of my agent and I told her the story and and we both discussed it and we thought, you know, maybe I should write a book about why I stopped writing books after my first successful book. So yeah, I think that's like one of my favorite takeaways is that people are just so upset and so affected as I was, as I think you were, even though your book is awesome. It's almost a given that someone's going to get negative reviews. And to make you feel even better about negative reviews, the better a book does, I found the more negative reviews it should get that as a book surges and popularity, people want to be contrarians on sites like Amazon when they write a review. There's all sorts of different reasons that people bring to the table when they write a re you. I hopefully have helped a lot of business owners by helping them embrace the negative reviews. One of the fascinating things, also a great takeaway for me that I love. There's a study done at Nyu where they studied the effective negative reviews on people's perception of a couple of digital cameras. So I won't go through all the methodology, but in the end what it found was that if there are some negative reviews combined with positive reviews, people were more likely to buy that camera than a camera that had only positive reviews. And here's why I think that is I think people are smart when the reading reviews, if they see all positive reviews, they start to become a little suspicious. Are these reviews real? Did this product or service find a way to get some fake reviews? If I can find some negative reviews that seem somewhat real to me, I'm going to believe the positive reviews more. And Yeah, I this. I've done this speech so much I feel like I'm almost a therapist for like chefs when they talk to me about their book. I go through these stories and I tell them about how you you should really embrace it. Chefs of the are the toughest. No one wants to hear their babies ugly is suddenly if I don't know if that's an old southern phrase or where I got that from, but yeah, it's. It's a tough thing. No one wants to hear that criticism, especially about something that you've put so much effort into. In writing a book, it just takes so much and to have somebody just within a few key strokes, burst your bubble is tough. But as best I can, I will continue to preach that message, that embrace those negative reviews because they're probably doing you a favor, favor and making your pause, your positive reviews more believable. It definitely made me feel better. So, like for my two shows, so this show, the biohacking podcast, and then the intermitten fasting podcast. So this show will, knock on wood, tends to get very wonderful, supportive, amazing reviews. Like the community is just so amazing, but there are a few there's just a few reviews where I don't know why, I just do not resonate with that person, and so this has been a really helpful reframe for that. And then you also do address this is what I always struggle with, like if you should ask for reviews or not. What are your thoughts on that? No, you can make it known that Your Review Your Business thrives off of reviews. That's an effective strategy.

So you know, whether it's on a website or in a store, putting up stickers or just something that lets people know that reviews are important to you, that's okay. But going out asking for the review, I find, doesn't really work that well. What I do find another thing that works well, and one of my favorite stories I had the opportunity to interview this locks myth in New York. He had the strategy of doing something extra for his clients, for his customers, and his little extras were just so impressive. People couldn't help themselves but wanting to review. So one of the stories he told me is like, you know, I get these calls to come out, you know, someone locks themselves out of their apartment and always bring Canad W D forty up with me to the apartment and as soon as I get them into their their place, I say, you know, I hope you don't mind, but I'd love to go with you through your apartment and just oil all the hinges on your door so they don't squeak. And this is no charge. I just love to do this for my clients. We does that simple thing. Takes some maybe two or three minutes, and a New York apartment and people who wanted to oil their hinges forever but just never got around to it and had squeaky doors everywhere. So impressed they had to give him a positive review. It is no coincidence that his girlfriend was a concierge at the four seasons and I think she gave him this idea to do this and he was like, you know what, I'm going to be the four seasons of locksmiths, and that's how he approached every job that he did and he told us really touching story that he was. He went out on a call and this woman had locked herself out of her apartment and her grocery bag. She had gone shopping and came back and couldn't get back in, but her grocery bag had broken and this really expensive tea that she bought had the as like an a little glass jar had fallen out and broken, and so he got her back into the apartment, took note of what the tea was. After he finished the job, he went to the store, found the tea, brought it back to a coustum like ten bucks. It's expensive for tea, but you know it's ten bucks and he handed the tea and he's like here, I just wanted to make your day a little bit better and and left. Of course you couldn't do anything but right a positive review. It's little things like that. It's like the Amuse Boush that you get in a five star restaurant before a prefixed dinner. It's like, think about those little things you can do. Even authors can do things like that, like providing channels where people can ask questions and find ways to interact with your audience and help. There's a way to do it in almost any business or any type of service. I hadn't thought about that before, but with the amuse boost, like when that happens at a restaurant, I'm like, oh they're giving me something special for me for free. Like, yeah, some of my some of the businesses that I talked to, I provided them free copies the book and even like they're almost like fast casual restaurants, they were deciding to do, I'm use boost for their customers, like just come out and say, Hey, we're we're testing out this new thing, we just want to give you a free sample, and people just lit up and their positive reviews or just by doing funny little something to do for somebody. It was pretty cool because you wrote that book in two thousand and fourteen because instagram went did instagram really take off? Your analysis of the like Amazon reviewers sort of felt like foreshadowing of today's influencers in a way. You were talking about how people review and the motivations and I feel like the influencer turn wasn't quite what it was then. There was not now. Yeah, but I was like Oh this he's like he's onto something. That was so fascinating to me, not just not just the influencer part. We'll talk about that. So let's talk about that first. As I found the guy who is the number one reviewer for Amazon at the time and I interviewed him, I think he had the time he was living up in Seattle, and what I found was that the according to him, there was this competition amongst the top ten, that they were just trying to get more likes of their reviews and they're doing there all sorts of gamification. They're actually down voting there the other top ten's reviews when they saw them to try and knock those people out of the number one position. It was like game to them. But this one guy, he became a market mover. So if he gave a negative review to like a new kitchen appliance that was on Amazon, the CEO of that company would call him up and say, please reconsider your review, you're killing our business. And I was it's an amazing to me to have that much power.

And this guy was a sound engineer and he just kind of fell into this and and it became like an obsession of his. I think I followed up with him after the book came out and he had gotten divorced because his wife couldn't take all of these free goods that were being shipped to the house or boxes everywhere. You couldn't even move, and he he lost himself in the obsession over reviewing and being number one, which it to me. It was just fascinating. I never thought at the time of some of the motivations behind why people write reviews and that was a real eye opener for me. So I continued and I actually came up with different personas as I interviewed more and more reviewers. I found like the elite yelpers that did it for status. There was a woman that I interviewed also in the northwest, and she wrote reviews almost like a literary exercise. It was an outlet for her to write very poetic things, you know, not not what should expect at all. And a guy in the bay area who just wanted to review everything. He posted reviews of his lawn. Now he gave his lawn like two stars because there's Brown patches. I just crazy stuff. It's and that, I think the takeaway for me was that everyone comes to review, both the reader but, more importantly, the people writing reviews. They come with their own agenda and that's one of the things that kind of gets lost when we, as a business owner or the author, look at our reviews and we can understand why that person had that perspective. Or wrote what they wrote. It's because people are in perfect people behavior rationally. People have different perspectives and different goals and you just have to realize that. I remember because I remember where I lives, and so it probably was around that time of like two thousand and fourteen, and I remember seeing the Amazon reviews and I remember a moment like where I was looking at the reviews and I was like this could be a thing. I was like if I actually put in time and like did reviews every single day, because I saw I would see how they would have the top reviewers and I was like, Oh, I want to be a top reviewer. But I was like that it's not worth it, like the time, the time investment, but I saw it as something that could be, I guess, a source of power. And then now the way it's manifested, I think today is with like the influencer world. Yes, and I but I think that world's evolving. So I think it took off and and influencers initially have a lot of power. They some of them still have a lot of power, but now I think the populace is starting to recognize that a lot of influencers come to the table with an agenda, be it to push a product because they're getting paid to do so or they have their own perspective on something that may not match their's, and so I think there's probably going to be another evolution of the influencer category that will make some influencers either change their game or they'll probably weighing in their popularity, and others that might be more transparent about their perspective or provide more value add that we're getting from current influencers. I think it's going to involve and it's it's going to be different in a few years from now. Oh, that is interesting, because I identify as an influencer and for me it's been so, so important to what you're speaking to about. I guess trust like I really can only put my name behind things that I, you know, personally use and obsessed with, and that's just been the main thing for me, and I think that's why everything is resonated so well with my audience. The trend that you're predicting, what are you predicting that it will look like? I think there's going to be a reckoning in terms of people not willing to follow those that are are very motivated by just making a buck in terms of pushing product, versus the individuals that provide a perspective and are are more true to giving airtime to things that they truly support and use themselves. I think that's going to be the change and it's happening already, and it's funny. I never really, I never really thought of you as an influencer. I thought of you more as a superconnector. But yeah, I mean there are things that you do as an influencer, but as an author, I maybe put you in a different cat agory because you do have a a clearly defined perspective, you've got a body of work and just fascinating content at the same time that, I think I would put you in a different category than someone who's just pushing goods without an agenda other than to just increase a bank account. I guess that is the next yeah, like you said, the next manifestation. But as far as like the influencer goes, like, I'm approached by brands, I mean pretty much daily, and so then I'm making a decision of what to...

...influence my audience, but it's mostly all knows. It's normally things that I was using first and I'm obsessed with so, but yeah, I will be very curious to see how it all goes a topic that you touched on in, I think it was in click, and it's a topic that sort of ties in where you and I are right now. timewise. It's the new year, although this airs that will not be the new year anymore, but I'm the New Year and then going to die in fitness because I'd love to talk about signals. But what is the concept of false hope syndrome? Oh, I love this syndrome. So let me give you the backstory behind why I decided to talk about it. So one of the first trends that I noticed when I dove into this massive data set. I think I mentioned it earlier. The first thing I charted was people searching on diets, and the pattern was just so amazing in terms of how it repeated that I could look back, and now I've even done this on Google trends night. I would suggest your audience, if you want to go down the rabbit hole, go to trends that googlecom and type in diets and choose the maximum timeframe. I think can go all the way back to two thousand and four and look at the pattern on people searching for diets. The peak is always the same every single year and I think you might be able to guess what that is. Searching for diets. Yeah, what, What Day is it? January first. Always doesn't matter what day of the week the New Year falls on, but that will be the peak and that peak only last five days every single year. That that peak will drop off by thirty forty percent by the sixth of January. And up until a small glitch, the low point was always the same every single year up until a glitch. Yeah, a little glitch. But can you guess what day? Thanksgiving? Yes, the glitch was when the biggest loser was airing, the week they aired their finale, the week of Thanksgiving, which caused an increase in diet search. Is, interestingly, not an exercise just in diets. But then as I looked at the pad and there's other little minor trends that happened, like there's a little bump right before spring break, a little bump right before summer and diets. And every single year it repeated over and over and over again. Then when I looked at the search term vation so I could look at the peak on January first and I look at all the way people searched. I found in my searches that some of the diets and the way people were searching and where they were going, the diets claims were getting more and more aggressive, like you can lose ten pounds in a month, you can lose ten pounds in fourteen days, lose ten pounds in a week, you can lose ten pounds tomorrow. And I just thought to myself, this something to this. Why these claims by these diets getting more and more outrageous? And that's when I stumbled upon Janet Polivan her studies around false hope syndrome. So what she was trying to study the same thing I was trying to get my head around, which is why do people fall for these diets that have outrageous claims? And so she conducted the study up at the University of Toronto. Divided women, I think she only studied women for this particular trial, divided them into three groups. The study was two parts. So first part these three different groups. Each group was shown a different add it was lose twelve pounds in a week, lose six pounds in a week and lose two pounds in a week. So all they were done. All that was done with the groups has they're handed ad and asked to read it. You Two can lose twelve pounds and in a week. The next part of the study is they brought these women into a room and there's a big plate of chocolate chip cookies and they were asked to do a taste test and review the cookies. What she did was, after all the groups left, the plates of cookies were weighed from the group that was told told the most outrageous claim of lose twelve pounds in two weeks to six to two. The one that was given the most outrageous claim, their plate weighed the most, meaning they ate the least cookies, and the Middle Group was the middle and the group that was told they could only lose two pounds in a week ate the most. And her conclusion from this is that diets that give us our outrageous claims kind of give us the sense of empowerment in the beginning that wow, you know, I feel like I'm in control. And the women were then in that first group ate the least because they're they were empowered by this idea of losing that weight. But what she found was that as that weight doesn't come off like promised in that period of time or if the Diet was unsustainable, those people would fail on that Diet. And even more interestingly and subsequent studies, she found those people are...

...more likely to repeat the pattern the more they failed. And that was the beginning of false hope syndrome and something that I still think is really important today, especially after the New Year, just thinking about what's happening in the Diet Industry. I think there's actually some positive changes that are happening now. Finally, there are still some outrageous claims, but I think the positive angle of what's happening is we're starting to move away from diets, which I think it's been a long time coming. Just to play devil's advocate with that example. So people who are presented with an extraordinary claim are more likely to, in the beginning, you know, adhere to it. With that argue for like a stair step approach, where you make extraordinary claims that are only supposed to last like a week and then you plateau and then you make another claim and go a week and then plateau like. Is there a way to hack that where it would actually work? Yeah, can we? Can we keep these people going? That's a great question. I haven't considered that. I feel almost like Lex luthor even thinking about the idea. I don't know that I'd want to do that, but yeah, maybe there is. Maybe, Huh, fascinating. Someone should study that. The study I'm thinking of in context with this is and I'll have to find it, but it was on and it might actually be what you were talking about. It is on people following extreme diets and they were I think it was looking at long term weight loss and the most effective trend was not like moderation for this long period of time. It was actually really extreme in the beginning and then not extreme like that was more effective because people were better at being really intense in the beginning rather than having to be moderate for a longer period of time. So I'm just wondering if there is like a way to hack this. Yeah, as I try and switch to a positive viewpoint of that question, this is something that we should solve. I do have issue with being extreme in the beginning, but as one of our advisors, Dr Silkolaad, said to me in a one of the episodes on my podcast, he's he's an epidemiologist at UCSF and he said, you look, I can get anyone to lose weight. I can actually get them to lose quite a bit of weight. The challenge is keeping that weight off because actually the quicker that people lose the weight, the more likely are they are to gain it back and and even gain back plus what they had had lost. So the challenge that's been facing the Diet Industry is how do we provide some lifestyle changes to individuals that not only help them lose weight but give them that long term success where they keep the weight off? And that's why I've been so excited just this this last year started to see this trend towards things like intuitive eating, and there's that Wall Street Journal article that came out the the first week of the year about the Undet or the non diet, that there's does seem to be some skepticism now amongst the at least in the popular press, that hey, these these different diets we've been covered and covering all these years, that there's a chance you're going to lose the weight, but maybe we're not addressing the real issue, which is how do we help you lose the weight and keep it off. Friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get forty percent off a product that has truly changed my life. Do you experience dress or anxiety or chronic pain? Do you have trouble sleeping at least once a week? If you do, trust me, you are not alone. I personally have explored so many avenues for how to have a healthy relationship with stress, and finding the world of CBDY oil has been absolutely incredible for that. After doing more and more research, I realized just how incredible the health benefits of CBD are. CBD regulates your can of anoid system, kind of like an Adaptagen, making you feel better. Naturally. It's not addictive, it's not a crutch. Basically, it's just helping your body function better when it comes to stress, anxiety, pain and sleeplessness. I take it daily from my mood and the effects are profound. In fact, I even got robbed last year and I went from crying with stress and anxiety to taking some feels and laughing. I said to my mom, mom, see how effective this is due to all of its health benefits. We knew we wanted to partner with a seabed company for the PODCAST, but I have very stringent criteria. You guys know this. So many brands approached us and I kept just saying nope because nothing fit all of my criteria. I wanted seebdy oil that was full spectrum, tested for purity, organic, made with mct oil as the carrier and that I actually experience benefits from. That's a pretty tall order to fill. We said no to a lot of brands and then feels came along and it was meant to be. I personally tried it out and started seeing massive effects on my sleep...

...and stress. Feels is so easy to take. You can just put a few jobs under your tongue and you'll feel the difference within minutes. I truly do feel it within minutes. Of course, it is important to remember that CBD works differently for everybody, based on your own unique can of annoyed system. So you might need to work to find your perfect dose. Experiment over the course of a week or so and you may find that you need more or less, depending on the effects that you're looking for. I'm also super grateful because they have an incredible offer for my audience. You can start feeling better with feels become a member today by going to feelscom Melanie Avalon and you'll get forty percent off your first three months with free shipping. That's FEA lscom Melanie Avalon to become a member and get forty percent automatically taken off your first three months with free shipping feelscom Melanie Avalon. When you get that offer, you'll be joining the fields community and you'll get feels delivered directly to your doorstep every month. You'll save money on every order and of course, you can pause or cancel anytime and I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right. Now back to the show. Was that question? What led you to found signals solving that issue? That that is so I'm a cofounder of Signos. So my cofounder's Sharem and Pierre, started a little bit before me actually coating up the idea that I met my cofounder, Charem, who I know from premious previous venture. I met him up in San Francisco when I traveled up there back in the beginning of two thousand and twenty, before the pandemic started, and ironically, we went out to this pizza restaurant and had tons of pizza and bread and wine desert. It was a very carb heavy meal and Sharon was telling me at the time. He said, I'm going to found this new company and I have this idea about how we can use CGM's to help people lose weight. And what was happening in my life? Just to give you some backstory, I had been trying to lose weight for a while. I was about at the time. I'd lost twenty pounds but I still ten pounds overweight and I had seen a new doctor. She did a cholesterol test and she's like, your cholesterols way out of whack. And I just married a Vegan, so the question was, okay, I'm eating Vegan and my cholesterral is really high. So she sends me to get this cardiac calcium scan and it comes back off the charts. Oh Wow, really, yeah, four hundred and forty I think, and like a good number is between zero and two wow, yeah, or zero five. So it's very you want very low numbers. And so this is the wakeup call for me. I go into Cedar Sini to do a stress test because they want to make sure I just don't drop dead at some point. So I'm in there. It's a reclining bike doing a stress test. I'm hooked up to an Ekg, they've got an ultrasound machine ready to take a look at my heart and as the test starts, this attending physician comes in with about twenty residents and interns into and they're surrounding me in a circle as I do this stress test, and the attending says to all the residents he's like he starts off his little speech by saying this is the guy we've been telling you about, like Oh, that's never a good sign. He's then continues and says he looks really healthy, he engages in a lot of athletics, but look at this cardiac calcium score. And they're all flipping through the pages that they have here, some like kind of gasps and a little bit of disbelief, like wow, I got to really fix this. The stress test came out fine, but still I met with my cardiologist and he's like yeah, you're doing great, just lose another ten pounds. But for the life of me, I couldn't do it and I tried a lot of diets and this idea of turning my eye towards data, which I loved, was just so exciting as I gotta do this, I got to do this. I'll do this for myself, but I think there's something here that I could help, just not myself, but anyone else who's trying to lose weight, to to become healthier, trying to maybe control their like semic responses. Maybe someone's pre diabetic. There's, I think, help out there by opening up this technology which up until this time is really been only available to type one and now type to diabetics and slowly, through the companies that are coming out now, people that are prediabetic and and want to use it for performance or now jet just getting access to see GM's. I thought that there's there's definitely use case here to help those people out. Just hearing that calcium artery score, because I've been recently, I don't know, the whole cholesterol plaque diet heart hypothesis is so hotly debated, and one of the things they've been listening to or learning about recently is how, like, as a lot of people who are...

...on Keto diets but with high, clossal numbers will say that they have like a negative or like a clean calcium artery score. But then I was reading how this is why I was so shocked by your numbers. I was hearing how, like most people, even if they are turning that way when they're, you know, in their s, are going to have normal calcium artery scores. Like it's whoever I was listening to is saying that it's not really good indicator because it could be bad, but you just don't normally see it until way later. So the fact that yours was that high and you're, you know, at your age, that's really intense. That must have been quite a moment. Yeah, it was, and I think there may be some reasons for where some people can eat a Keuto Diet and not have a problem. I think there is the genetic component probably to this. I think so too. Yeah, but I urge people to just be cautious in terms of anything that involves eating a lot of saturated fats. You might be fine with it, but it's a conversation you should have with your doctor before you go too deep into something. How did you first get a CGM? So my first I don't know if I should be admitting this, but at my my first CGM actually got like on the black markets or yeah, like it fallen off the back of a truck kind of thing. I think it was on Amazon. It was a third party seller, kind of buried really deep. I found this guy who was reconditioning old transmitters and then like had some sort of hack on how you could get the sensors, because I talked to my primary and and she said you don't really need a CGM. Like yeah, I kind of do. I really want one. I love data, and she wasn't swayed by my I love data story. So here I am getting this black market CGM that was like a recondition. It's kind of scary to think about going back down'm using this recondition CGM, but yeah, that's how I got the first one. Like how did you get the data from it or did he have a program? So yeah, we had already been building the program. So, Shermon Pierre, and at this time used it with your program, with our program. So yeah, so this was a DEXICOM CGM. So they did have their own but you know, it didn't it wasn't really built for the purpose that we had in line. It was more built to help diabetics manage their glucose and know when they needed up poles, bence len and when they needed to be concerned if they're their glucose was going too low. It Wass a very specific use case and our idea is to take this technology and use it in a way that we could help people lose weight. So this is a big question I have because I'd love to hear more about the actual programming and data analysis, and I'm assuming there's machine learning with signals learning from data. So before you actually have users, how do you program the programs to so for right the beginning, before they are any users, do the programs have any thoughts or assumptions, or do you have to have users using it for an extend a period of time before the artificial intelligence starts making conclusions? Like what does that timeline look like? Yeah, yeah, and we we actually use ourselves as guinea pigs in the beginning, and myself along with with PR other engineer, our engineer. I'm not really an engine I'm not an engineer at all, but we worked on some ML algorithms and some some artificial intelligence to look at our own individual responses and that's been one of the guides for us. And I know you and I are both huge fans of the study that was in sell back in two thousand and fifteen from the whitesman institute about personalized and precision nutrition. It's this idea that everyone's different. So yes, they're, they're probably are some learnings we can make from the population, but where we probably needed to focus was an individuals response to foods. So the way this algorithm worked in the beginning, in the way we've continued to build it out, as it looks at each individual and the responses to foods and then, based on those responses, tries to predict how they're going to respond to other foods. And over the we're getting into they'll be two years. We've been working on this a little bit more. It's gotten surprisingly accurate and how we can take just an individuals data and how they respond to some foods and see how well we can predict what the response is going to be to something else. So to clarify when a person uses it, what person of the predictions are based all within this one person, compared to taking into account other people. It's almost exclusively the individual. Oh Wow, yeah, there is some that we feed from the population,...

...especially in the early days, but it's as it builds. We recognize that people are different and they'd respond differently and that has to be taken into account when you predict. They're GLEA seem in response and we we decided also to build two different things. That wasn't just the response to food. The other idea was, okay, let's say that you have eaten something that's going to Spike Your Glucose. We can by giving you an exercise test and monitoring how exercise impact. Sure like semic response, we can write an algorithm that would give some type of prescription for what type of exercise you needed to do to mitigate a spike. So that's the second half of okay, I just ate this big piece of chocolate cake. If I got on my treadmill and did like a zone to work out for thirty, forty minutes, I could completely negate that spike. You're mentioning that cell study. Are you finding similarities and trends with the foods that people react to, or is it pretty much just all over the place? There are some very basic similarities, like things like added sugar that we found that for almost everyone. And there's the I had this great conversation with our mutual friend Rob Wolf, and he was pointing out to me and that study there was actually somebody who had pure glucose that didn't spike as much on the glucose as a food that contained an equivalent amount of carbs. So even that that there are some exceptions and people are going to respond a little bit differently, but there are some some basic things like that. There is a correlation in simple carbs. There's also a correlation with some processed foods with the quality of sleep. Those things are some commonalities, but this still within that there are differences, and this this is actually where I thrive as in those differences, because what I want our members to going and what I encourage them doing and what we do already with our staff, is to experiment with their CGM. We just finished an experiment that we did internally, and this is very low end, so it's not really sight it scientifically or justly significant, but it's eye opening in and of itself, as we decided to test apples amongst our group, and I don't know if you know this, but there are twentyzero different varieties of apples. Twentyzero, Twentyzero, so many, so many. It's so I had an apple. Very early on when I first put on a CGM and I spiked, I went from like ninety to one fifty and I thought that's it, I'm not an apples anymore. And then I was having a conversation with one of our nutritionists and she had this idea of we know there's all these different apples out there, I wonder if we might react differently. So I challenge everyone in the company to go out and buy as many apples as they can. So I got a whole foods and like just walking through produce, I noticed there's like fourteen different varietys just in this one store and I buy every one of them. And over the next like couple of weeks, every morning, instead of having a breakfast or doing my one meal a day, I'm breaking my fast by doing an experiment, because it's like the best time of day for me at least, to do early morning, right when I wake up, eat something measure response. So I'm measuring my response to an Opal Apple, to a gala, to cosmic crisp, to an envy, you name it, I'm testing it. And the responses ranged wildly from an impact of like plus fifty to the Arkansas Black, which I couldn't even discern a spike for the first one that I ate. And then as the results started coming in from the team, everyone on the team had different responses to the same variety. So there was no correlation between us on the different apples and even when we average the mean out, it was all different. It was kind of like that whitespan study, and so everyone was responding differently to this apple. So that was the eye opener. But you know, it really got me excited, and this also got me excited about just and an equals one experiments is that I noticed with myself and the entire team. I didn't plan this, but we were becoming mindful eaters. Like the conversation on our internal message board was, you know, I spike to this on this specific apple, but I found it a little bit grainy and I really like the texture of this apple. And someone responded back, no, no, you got to try this apple because it's like it's just the right amount of sweetness, it's got a little bit of tartness. The whole team was becoming like really, really mindful about apples and it almost became like an obsession for us. So first of all, we didn't want to have like cookies or something in the afternoon if we could get our glucose down, and we wanted to do a sec... experiment the day we were turning to apples to test them. But just the thought of becoming so thoughtful about a food versus. I can remember back presignals I would just go to the market and throw any old apple in my cart and not really think about it. Now I'm like really really thinking about food, and I think that's something that happens when you go down this path of experimenting with food is that hopefully you're also becoming very mindful about your body, how your body reacts to foods, how your body recks to other things, and through that path that mindfulness is only going to help you become healthier. Did you find when you were trying to different apples, when you fit into an apple, did you have a sense that you thought it was going to spike more than another apple, or was it a surprise? In the beginning I thought I did, and it was actually the tartar apples for me, spike me more and I thought it would be like the more more modern bread apples that were bred to be sweet like cosmic Chris would speke me the most, but Grannie Smith would really spike me for me, and this didn't this wasn't true. The whole team airloom apples did really well on my system. So going to the farmers market and getting like that Arkansas Black, which is an apple that dates back to the eighteen hundreds and really hasn't been bred to be sweet, that did really well with myself. Stem or finding other apples at the market, at the farmers market, tend to do a lot better than when I was getting at the supermarket. I'm prepping right now to interview Dr Rick Johnson. He's one of the go to experts on fructose and he's a book coming out called nature wants us to be fat. But he talks all about the different enzymes from metabolizing fructose and the liver like because they're all over there in the liver, they're in the intestines and they have different effects and I just wonder if it goes down. I mean I'm sure there's so many factors, but I wonder what role, like people's individual you know, Gluco Kayanase are fructo Kaynese enzymes is playing where their gut bacteria. Yes, that is such a such a great question. I don't know if you've been talking to rob since since you and I talked, but we had this exact same conversation because when you look at an apple, they're going to have different amounts of sucrose, glucose and fructose. FRUCTOS can fake you out a little bit because it's metabolized almost exclusively in the liver or explicitly in the liver. It is probably not going to hit the blood stream until the liver decides to convert what it has back and from like a Gin, into glucose at some point. So that complicates things a little bit. But yes, I think that's one of the things that as we continue this and I get more data from the member base, is looking at specific apples, their composition of different sugars the way those sugars are metabolized. I think it's going to be really interest distinct to follow. Yeah, one of the coolest takeaways from his book about Fructos was they figured out that. Have you read his book or do you know him? I have not. I know him, I know of him, but I have not read this book and I'm writing down notes because I have to get him on my show. I will connect you to him. I was emailing him yesterday. One of the most fascinating experiments he talks about is the enzyme that breaks out fructose in the liver. They think is the one that determines metabolic syndrome. So if you're breaking down fructose in the liver, it's creating metabolic issues but it doesn't affect actually cravings. That's the intestinal fructose enzyme. So if they block your intestinal fructose enzyme, you lose your cravings but you would still get metabolic syndrome. If they block the liver, you would still have cravings but not get the metabolic syndrome. I might have said that backwards. Regardless, regardless, like where the location is determines cravings versus metabolic issues. It's fascinating. Yeah, I'm guessing if that fructose gets stored in the liver, that's where you're going to run into a metabolic syndrome. Yeah, yeah, and which is so fascinating because if you turn to the glycemic index, it will tell you that, you know, something like a gove is a very low glycemic index sweetener, and so because it's like all fructose. Yeah, my Motherin Law, I hope she doesn't listen to this. She's fungarian. So she says ago a, she she just overdoses on Aga a because she saw somewhere that it was a very low glycemic index and she's trying to lose weights. She's like she's like puts ogive a on everything and like don't do that. It's just it's almost pure fruit dose. All these foods are so fascinating. The way our body react to them even more fascinating. So your overall data set and what you're learning with Stignos, do you think there's not necessarily an issue? But does it self select for like healthy user bias, like does it self select for a certain type of people? Do you think that that overall data would be different if it was a population? Why CGM experiment? I don't think so. Again,...'re going to our algorithm. It's really personalized, so there should be no bias in the type of person you know. That being said, our first customers include a lot of biohackers and now more and more we're getting more members that are just coming to us for weight loss. So they are different sets. As I look at the data, though, across both those two different groups, I'm not seeing much of a difference in terms of of how people are seeing different foods affecting their glucose. I mean there's of course is going to be some difference for someone who's more fit or more athletic, which is another fascination of mind, which is how different forms of Exercise Affect Your Circulating Glucose. That that's just fascinating. My latest obsession. Have you seen alcohol to yeah, so here's a here's another great example of almost coming up with a faulty hypothesis. So I had my my niece was over. She's she's ten now, and always make pizza for her. I make like a homemade pizza, roll out the dough everything, and she's got a lot of energy. So I usually have a glass or two wine when she's over and I'm making the pizza. So the first time I did this I was like, okay, I had two glasses of of this Italian red and I didn't see any spike at all on my Glucos. Wait, I've stumbled upon the cure for for like glucose spikes from carbs and well, I didn't put it together. Other people in the team we're finding the same thing. When they had some alcohol, they didn't see a spike. But when we looked at our data after doing a lot of repeats, and it didn't take much to twist my arm and do a repeat on this, but what we found was that the glucose still spiked. It just it the spike was several hours after the meal, versus what I usually have, which is a spike that starts about forty minutes, fifty minutes, depending on the food, and I think this is an issue of oxidative priority. So your body has to metabolize the alcohol first. Can take a little bit of time. That delays the metabolism of some of the other macros that you've consumed, specifically the CARBS, and that spike is delayed. It's been so interesting to follow that I think I'll still will have wine, especially after reading your book. I'll still be having my nightly glass of wine, but I won't be fooled anymore to think, okay, this is my free path to have as much pizza as I want, because now I know to look to see that spike which you have, depending on if you have two or three glasses. Sometimes that spike and like happen in the middle of the night, which we don't want. We don't want to be experiencing glycemic spikes in the middle of the night. Sleep disruptive. It's not a good thing for users. Signing up for signals the actual user experience. Is it? I'm assuming a two week is that a two week program based on the CGM's or how does it work? And No, no, I mean that's as long as you're getting results. This is where we differ from some of the other companies that are out there. There's so many learnings you can get from this device. I put my my first CGM on in I guess it was like February of two thousand and twenty. I've one almost continuous. I've worn one almost continuously to now and still I'm finding learnings. So it's as long as you're getting results, we encourage you to continue to use it. Two years so you've been wearing one. For me, yeah, I'm sure people are may not go that long, but I've found ways of jot not just losing the weight. So that ten pounds that I wanted to lose to satisfy my cardiologist. I lost that in the first month, I think, mainly just for making a tweak to my oat meal and taking out the bananas, adding a nut butter, flax seed and have hearts a couple of the things. Hi Friends, so what I'm about to say may include some disturbing content, so if young ones are listening, you may want to skip ahead. On Valentine's Day, two thousand and twenty two, I experienced sexual battery by a man at a massage parlor. I felt so helpless and so scared while it was happening and afterwards I was really, really scared to tell anybody. I'm so glad that my friends encouraged me to tell the police and I'm so glad that the police believed me and that the man is now in jail. And ever since sharing my story, you guys have been so supportive. So many people have applauded me for telling the police, saying that something like that had happened to them too and they never told anybody. I started looking into the statistics and they are pretty shocking. So sexual assaults are most likely the most prevalent crime in the US and they are also the most underreported. Every sixty eight seconds and American is sexually assaulted.

So I was one of those. Every nine minutes that victim is a child. Meanwhile, only twenty five out of every onezero perpetrators will end up in prison and only five percent of sexual assault reports filed have ever been proven false. Eighty two percent of all juvenile sexual assault victims are female, ninety percent of adult rape victims are female, and in two thousand and nineteen over six hundred and fifty two thousand, six hundred and seventy six women were raped and nearly one million women were victims of sexual assault. I believe this is a huge, huge problem happening in our society. It's one of the crimes where there's not usually evidence. It's not like a physical object was stolen or somebody outwardly injured or killed. It's basically your word against the perpetrator, and so it can be really, really scary to tell somebody and stand up for yourself, but I want to encourage you that we can change this, we can speak up. So if something happens to you, I encourage you. Please, please, tell somebody. I promise you you're not crazy. The thing that really convinced me to go to the police was it wasn't so much about me, but about stopping this man from doing this to somebody else. If you feel like someone crossed a boundary, they probably did. People don't usually question things that are appropriate and normal, and as parents, I encourage you to have these conversations with your children and whatever time and way you feel comfortable. I think we can make change here. It's just about spreading awareness and taking a stand and speaking out. So thank you, everybody, so much for the support. I love you all. You are amazing and let's change this. So, like I always say, you got this. Okay, back to the show. But Yeah, I've engineered all my meals, but now I'm using it more in terms of athletic performance. So during this pandemic, I started my adventure on my rowing machine. It's amazing what it sends me to do things. But I have this concept two rower and as soon as I got my machine, I saw on their website that you could get a free t shirt if you wrote a million meters. This is the type of thing I do. They put something out there, I'm like, I want it, like it's so stupid. It's like what a free t shirt? I wrote tenzero meters for like a hundred days in a row to get my my t shirt. That's what I would do, man, I love that. I love that. Oh, I'm just going to say I think one of the most valuable things for me wearing a CGM. I'm not encouraging people to go crazy while wearing a CGM, but if you do wear CGM and you do have a moment where you eat something that you probably thought was not good for you, seeing that crazy spike is so powerful because even then, when you don't have the CGM in the future, you know, like if you see those foods again, you're like, oh no, I know what that does to me. Having that knowledge is something you can't really have otherwise, like you can't actually see. So I just think the DAT is so powerful for user change. That is so true. If, for me, go back to when I was trying to lose those last ten pounds, the only feedback loop I really had was how my clothes are fitting and what the scale said, and there's so many confounding factors that you know, to try and make a change to what I was doing based on those two feedback loops was nearly impossible. But to see within a few minutes after eating something, what my glicemic response was. It was amazing. I was like wow, okay, so here I've got this, this massive spike. Let me reverse engineer what was happening there. What can I do about that? Can I? Should I just eliminate that food? Do I talk about food order, food combinations, food substitutions? It's very empowering to have that kind of information and then to see the next day when you eat that exact same food and you do something like either exercise immediately afterwards or you do what I did in reverse engineer your OATMEAL, your morning oat meal, to be more like seemingly friendly. To see that and then to see that translate into what's happening on the scale and how will your clothes are fitting? It's I think that's the point. When I when I first started a signal sce, I told share my I was going to be an advisor to his company, like I was it as previous and after seeing myself go from that massive spike from my oatmeal and then reverse engineering at the next day and not having any spike at all, I called him up and said I'm I'm coming full time. I'm not going to even give you a decision in this. So find a place for me. I need this and I need to keep doing this because it's just so empowering. Well, that is absolutely incredible. I'm so grateful for what you're doing. And this is perfect because the last question that I asked every single guest on this show, and it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is. So, what is something that you're grateful for? Wow, you know, I actually have a gratitude practice of my morning meditation as gratitude, and surprisingly, when I started it I didn't...

...think I know, after a few days I'd be able to find things to be grateful for. But every single day I find new things to be grateful for. If you're asked me and one thing, I would have to say my amazing, Beautiful Wife. To be in this pandemic and to like have to work from home and, you know, do everything in this this house is just so I'm so grateful to be partnered with her, but I'm also grateful for all of my friends. I'm grateful for my new friends, grateful for you, Melanie, and the fact that we got introduced and I can be on your show and you could be on mine. So I'm just overflowing with gratitude. I love it the same here. I'm just I'm so grateful for your work and what you're doing and just everything. This is such an amazing resource that really gives agency to people and I cannot thank you enough. And so for listeners, if they would like to sign up and get their own CGM, where did they go for that? They go to our website, which is signoscom. Sign Oscom, and if you want to follow us, you can do so at signos health, and that's our handle for all our social media. And also, please check out our PODCAST, body signals, and specifically go check out the Melanie avalon interview, which is awesome. Yes, thank you for having me. I was so honored. That was so wonderful. Well, thank you. This has been absolutely amazing. Saying I so, so appreciate becoming friends and all the work that you're doing and I'm sure there are many fabulous things in stores. So we'll have to stay in touch and see where it all goes. Awesome. Thanks, Melanie. Thanks Bill. Bye Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. For more information, you can check out my book what when wine? Lose weight and feel great with Paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine, as well as my blog, Melanie avaloncom. Feel free to contact me at podcast at Melanie Avaloncom and always remember you got this.

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