The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Episode 1 · 6 months ago

#155 - Laurie Mintz: The Female Orgasm, Becoming “Cliterate”, Vagina Terminology & Clitoris Anatomy , Hook-Up Culture, Masturbation & Self-Pleasure, Sex Therapy, Sexual Communication, And More!



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9:20 - Hysteria

10:20 - Background

13:20 - The Orgasm Gap

14:15 - The Pain Of Sex Unique To Women

15:10 - Sexual History That's Been Lost

17:00 - What Halted The Last Sexual Revolution

19:30 - The G Spot

21:30 - Definitions

23:40 - Orgasm From Penetration

26:00 - How Should We Define Sex

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32:00 - Procreation Vs Pleasure

34:50 - What Is Purpose Of The Clitoral Orgasm?

38:10 - What Is An Orgasm?

40:15 - Why Don't Men Have Sequential Orgasms?

43:10 - Length Of Orgasm

45:45 - Is Love Blind?

46:50 - Hook Up Sexual Culture 

49:50 - The Role Of Communication And Who Is Responsible For That

52:20 - The History Of The Vibrator (Or So We Thought)

55:30 - The Concerns Surrounding Vibrators

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59:40 - Is There Any Adverse Physical Effect On The Clitoris From Vibrators?

1:01:40 - Discussing The Vibrator With Your Male Partner

1:06:00 - Transferring Self Pleasure To Partner Pleasure

1:07:40 - Do We Need To Explore New Ways To Orgasm?

1:09:20 - Knowing The Anatomy Of The Clitoris

1:13:00 - Discomfort In Looking At Your Own Anatomy

1:15:30 - The Anatomy Of The Clitoris

1:20:00 - Is Masturbation Discussed In The Bible?

1:23:30 - Sex Therapy

1:28:00 - Stereotypes & Performance Anxiety

1:31:00 - Can You Think Your Way To Orgasm?

1:34:10 - Stress Hindering Orgasm

1:35:45 - Orgasming Every Day

1:38:00 - Looking Forward To The Change In Our Culture Surrounding Sex 

The way women pleasure themselves. Ninety nine percent do so by touching themselves externally, but yet when we are with male partners, were like, Oh, maybe I don't need that. Go right to penetration. The pain that the young women were experiencing, we're thinking they were broken and they were having very little sexual pleasure. The first step to orgasm in with a partner is orgasm by yourself, and know what brings you to orgasm and then transfer that to partner styles. Welcome to the Melanie avalon bio hacking podcasts, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and bio hack your life? This show is for you. Please keep in mind we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from implementing the tactics mind hearing. Are you ready? Let's do welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Oh my goodness, friends, you are in for a enlightening, fun, potentially controversial episode today. I had so much fun reading, becoming clitterate and preparing for this episode. Oh my goodness, I learned so much and it really really drew attention to the problems of orgasm equality in our society today. I cannot thank Dr Laurie ments enough for her work. Connecting with her was so amazing. I was thrilled with this conversation and I can't wait to hear what you guys think. I cannot thank Dr Mens enough for what she is doing. This education surrounding female sexuality, Sexual Health Orgasms is so, so needed. Thank you, Laurie, for what you're doing. You are changing women's lives and I am so honored to bring this conversation to the audience. And if you're a man listening, keep listening. I promise you this will likely help you as well in your relations with the ladies in your life, so definitely keep listening. Also, I feel like I got a little personal in this conversation, so we're just gonna go with that. These show notes for today's episode will be at Melanie Avalon DOT COM, slash clitter it. THAT'S C L I T E R a t e. those show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. There will be two episode giveaways for this episode. One will be in my facebook group. I have bio hackers. Intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life. Comments something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post to inter to win something that I love. And then check out my instagram. Also find the Friday announcement posts there and again comment to enter to win something that I love. Okay, friends, exciting announcement. My magnesium eight is available and I'm about to tell you how you can get ten percent off of it. I am so thrilled about this supplement. Magnesium is involved in over three instematic processes in the body. 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And lastly, if you're thinking of making clean beauty and safe skincare a part of your future, like I have, I definitely recommend becoming a band of beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon prime for clean beauty. You get timpercent back in product credit, free shipping unqualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price at the year long membership. It is totally completely worth it and I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, without further ado, please enjoy this wonderful conversation with Dr Lorie ments. Hi, friends, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation that I am about to have. Okay, I am going to just introduce today's guest and then, Um give a little bit of introduction of myself with my own history with this whole topic. So I am here with Dr Laurie Mints. She is a psychologist and sex therapist and she has two books, a tired woman's guide to passionate sex and then her more recent book, becoming clitter. It why orgasm equality matters and how to get it. Okay, friends, first of all, this book is one of the most incredible books I have ever read. I think it should be required reading for women everywhere. I honestly, honestly mean it. So I mentioned I was going to share a little bit about my whole story with this topic, because we're going to dive deep into everything that is in that book, which is sex and the definition of sex and orgasms and orgasm equality and masturbation and the cletterists and all the things. So my background. I was actually raised very, very religious and I loved my upbringing. I loved my family. I really truly cherish my childhood. That said, the one thing I've always told myself if I ever had children, that I think I would do very differently is how to approach the sex topic. And so my own experience with all of this is everything was sort of very taboo growing up. When I went to college, my friend actually took me to get my first vibrator and I can't wait to talk about vibrators today because I did not know about the history of them and that is fascinating. Just a little note, I do wonder if my mother is going to listen to this episode, but in any case, so my experience of everything was actually more with vibrators. And we're gonna have to define sex in this conversation sexual active vity. That wasn't exactly intercourse. And then I also was really interested historically in gender equality. I actually wrote a paper in college about Charcot at the Salpetrier in the eighteen hundreds France, when they came up with the whole concept of hysteria, which I argued in my paper was a suppression of Women, and I actually won a scholarship for that from the Gender Studies Program at USC so I've been very much interested in all of this for a long time. I realized I'm rambling all over the place, but I think there is just so many questions about what is sex, about a woman's experience of sex versus and males, about Orgasms, about should you orgasm? How should you orgasm? What's normal for Orgasm? Ng? There is just so much here. That was a lot of rambling, but I just wanted to be an open book about where I'm coming from and Dr Mints, thank you so much for being here. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm so...

...excited and I loved listening to your the context in your history around this. I think we all have a history that informs this that's also informed by culture in the way we're raised. So it was just fascinating for me to hear. Yeah, you talk about that all in the book, the role of Culture, and you know this concept of the pleasure gap in society, which maybe that's a good place to start. So we're going before that. I want to hear actually about you. What is your history like? Were you always really interested in this topic? What made you want to be a sex therapist? Did you have an epiphany someday where you realized what was going on with sexual inequality and the pleasure gap, or what was your history? I went to Grad school to be a therapist and I didn't have sex therapy even on my radar, to tell you the truth, and for years I taught and practiced, you know, out in a different area. I was actually specialized in eating disorders, which kind of interesting given your your work and but I always talked to my clients about sex, etcetera, because I was raised in an unusually sex positive household. Some funny stories about my mother, if we want to circle back, about just how unusually sex positive she was. So something I was always comfortable with and would always ask my clients about and most times I would hear yes, I'm having this problem, yes I'm having that. So I started kind of getting some trainings myself. But then what happened was to be really transparent when I had my second I have two daughters there in their thirties, both of them. But when my second daughter was born, my sex drive just like went out the window, gone done. And I knew, as a therapist and a couple of counselor just how important sex was. So I started like talking to friends, talking to my own therapist, talking to my doctors, my Oh b, my g P, and I got the same answer from everyone. Oh Yeah, me too, me too, me too, and I don't know what to do about it. Even a doctor said that to me. So I thought this is really a problem. So I did a deep dive into the you know, the scientific and clinical literature, and started like really understanding what was out there what wasn't, and I realized there was really no self help book out there. So I set about to translate that scientific literature into a self help book, which was my first book and I loved writing it and when it was published, to be honest, the scientist in me clicked in because I'm also a researcher and I was like, oh my gosh, what if I put something out in the universe and it's not helpful or harmful? So I started doing another deep dive into like the efficacy of self help and some students did some random clinical trials on the book. Found out yes, it worked. But then one thing led to the other and I soon found myself really immersed in the sex field and had the opportunity to teach a large enrollment undergrad class, and that is when my epiphany for the second book occurred, because what I discovered was the scientific literature on the orgasm gap, but even more important, the pain, the pain that young women were experiencing thinking they were broken, and I discovered that a whole bunch of knowledge that I was raised with had been lost to this generation and they were having sexual pain very little sexual pleasure. So I started teaching to women's pleasure and I would get notes from students in my class like this has changed my life. I'm orgasmic thanks to this class. My girlfriend's orgasmic, and I thought this has to be beyond my students. I want to spread the word and that's when I wrote becoming clear it. Wow, that is incredible. So to clarify the pain and everything that your students were experiencing. Was this a co Ed class, and you're noticing that from the women specifically? Yes, exactly. I use this clicker technology where I take poles, anonymous poles, and, you know, compare it to the research and I discovered that, you know, like, for example, in one poll, four percent of the women, versus like sixty of the men, were having orgasms during hook up sex. Of the women were experiencing sexual pain, like they all felt broken, they all thought there was something wrong with them and they would start not just responding to the polls, but talking about how broken they felt sexually and how hard rather than pleasurable sex was for them. Ow, and you mentioned that you know, this...

...information that you had growing up was lost to this new generation. So to clarify about that? Was it different historically for previous generations or just your upbringing was more open, so you were aware? Like, how long have these stats been this way? Great Question. So there's a long history about the clitterests and women's pleasure and orgasm being lost and found, lost and found in culture and I just happened to have my sexual coming of age during that very brief moment in time where everybody knew about the clitterest like there was our bodies, ourselves, this wonderful book, a new view of a woman's body that came out at the same time, and so it was just this very brief moment in time. Betty Dotson was out there doing or thing and it was brief. And now what we have is no sex aid. Were, you know, very poor sex that in our country. We hear about the dangers of sex. We never hear about women's pleasure, orgasm. And on top of that, and I'm not anti porn at all, we have porn, which is where people are getting their role, modeling, their sex said. So they have this, they have these false images with no accurate information to fix that. So that is where I think a lot of the problem. Wise, like in high school and growing up, the extent of my sexual ideas or education beyond formal education would have been reading, like talking with friends and reading COSMO, for example, and just thinking back to that, it was not about female, you know, pleasure on her own. It was always about like how to please the guy or like the sex position. It is very much focused, I feel, on the man. I'm super curious. So because, like you said, the history has been waves and oscillating between aware this and not, and the focus has changed so most recently. What ended that wave that you were in? What ended that wave? That is such a good question as well. I can't say exactly, but honestly I think it was the media hype, and Betty Dotson, before she passed away, said the media hype around the G spot has set us back to a Freudian era where we're all looking for some magic spot inside our vagina to make us orgasm. And it's not the scientific stuff around the g spot that's excellent, it's the media hype that this is like this great new discovery and you can find this, you can orgasm from intercourse. You, your vagina has this capability. That set us back, even back to that Freudian era where women were, quote, supposed to the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You know, Freud said that once you're mature, you'll transfer your sinse stations from your clearist to your vagina, which is like, like, that's like saying when we grow up, it makes no sense right, we'll stop breathing out of our nose and we'll start breathing out of our ears. Like we don't we write, we don't change functions of organs, you know, and and that has really done so much damage. And I think we started getting away from that where people in my air and knew about the clitterest and that it's the source of women's pleasure. And then this g spot hype, I think, set it back plus again. You know, no progress on sex that we've actually gone backwards in some ways. So all of those things, I think, have set us back. So I loved reading the part in your book about the g spot because I definitely had that moment. I felt so validated because I had become, like I said, I got a vibrator in college and became very familiar with my clitterests and all of that, and I distinctly remember, for reading something in some magazine about the g spot. It said basically what you just said, that the g spot was if you hadn't experienced it, that it was this, you know, magical thing that was way better than anything else. And I was like, Oh, I must be like until I find this g spot, I haven't experienced, you know, what I need to be experiencing. That is so, so fascinating, and you talked in your book. This blew my mind. I was wondering because you mentioned that this was a theory. I was wondering if you actually agree with it. You said in the book that they've noticed that the g spot makes the what we have to define, but we have to define all of our terms, makes our anatomy contract or like pushed downward. So maybe it had to do with giving birth and relieving pain, compared to an orgasm from the clutterest, which pulls upward for sex. I was wondering if you if you do think that that might be the theory. That's correct. Well, first of all, thank you for your detailed and careful read and you're you're during your g spot story, because it's so resonates with so...

...much of what I hear from people. And Yeah, I do think. I mean, I think our genitals are just there's so much to them that we don't know about still, but I do think that there is probably I agree with that theory. I think there is probably an evolutionary factor for the g spot, which isn't really a spot at all. As I it's really includes part of the vagina, part of the internal clitters and part of the Urethra. But, like you were saying, we know that if you push on it, for some people it's pleasurable, for some it's not. Some it results in orgasm, but we know that pushing on it results in feeling less pain. And that is right where the baby's head comes through, and so it could have that evolutionary function, that it's to decrease pain during childbirth. And we do also know, like you were saying, orgasms. When you have an orgasm from stimulating that area, your servex pushes down, whereas if you have an orgasm from stimulating the clearterest it pulls up, which gives more evidence than maybe this was intended for evolution to make childbirthless painful. That is just so, so mind blowing. I read that and I was like wow. So I finally just thank you because now I I feel like I don't have to go in search of this elusive g spot. So I keep using words and saying that we need to define words and listeners. The reason I'm saying that is because all throughout the book you talk about how powerful language is and how we can't really make change until we're using language that is properly communicating what is happening. So, for example, because just now I was going to say the word of Vagina, but you talk about how the Vagina we use this one word, vagina to include all of these different things. So could you talk a little bit about the words and Vagina Versus Volva? which does Volva mean to be ashamed? So No, Pooh Poo Dunda means to be ashamed, and that's what it's still used in medical terminology. So actually, this language stuff, it was my favorite chapter in the book. It's my favorite topic, so I'm so appreciative of you asking about it. So the x, the outside of our genitals, is called the Volva. So it includes the inner lips the outer lips, the Mons pubist, the clitteriest, the clearal glands and hood in the Vagina and the vaginal opening. The Vagina is a canal where babies can come out, penises can go in, dildos and fingers can go in. Yet we call our entire genitals of vagina, and by doing this we are linguistically erasing the part of ourselves gives us the most pleasure, because we know that only four to eighteen percent of us can orgasm from penetration alone. The rest need external clitteral stimulation. And so when we call our whole genitals of vagina, were linguistically erasing the part that gives us the most pleasure, and we're calling our genitals by the part that gives our male partners the most pleasure, not the part that gives us the most pleasure. Wow, question about that. That penetration. So that four to eighteen percent of people who can orgasm from penetration alone, are they actually orgasming from penetration or are they, like, indirectly orgasming from clateral stimulation? Great Question. The old surveys used to say, can you orgasm from intercourse? And used to find that said yes, they could, but then they realize, wait a minute, a lot of intercourse positions will stimulate the clitterists, or you might touch yourself or you as a vibrator. So then they refined the studies and said, can you orgasm from just a thrusting penis? And this those pieces of research found like about fifteen to eighteen percent said yes. But I started thinking even that probably has social desirability effects or like how should I orgasm since we think we're supposed to orgasm that way? So in the research I've conducted I just take out that part of the question and I say what's your most reliable route to orgasm? And when I do that, only four percent say intercourse alone. So yeah, there are a people who can orgasm from just a thrusting penis. Certainly in the mainstream movies, in porn you think it was everyone, but in reality it is a very small percentage of us. Yeah, I love that that reframe with how you...

...asked the question. But do we have the same issues with the mail and using the word penis to describe everything? No, we don't, because the penis, well, I mean there's the penis and then there's, you know, the scrotum and that, but the penis is really where. I mean, besides the prostate. For some, the penis is really where most sexual pleasure occurs and where men's most reliable route to orgasm does involve the penis. So calling their genitals the penis doesn't have isn't a problem. And they don't call the whole area that either. They either say my penis, my balls, like they differentiate, whereas we call the whole thing of vagina. And then on the sex front. So the word sex, I would love to dive into what we typically mean when we say that word. And one of my favorite things, I think. I don't know, I learned so much in this book, but I think one of the biggest ideas that stuck with me that I have told so many people since reading it, or I've just asked him to think about this, is you talk about how we define sex basically as intercourse where the male ejaculates and has an orgasm and if a woman has an orgasm, it's usually in the foreplay or it's before the male does. But like, the woman's orgasm is not the actual sex part and then the sex ends when the male has an orgasm. You talk about how that's, you know, gender inequality and gender inequality on the flip side, like it could just as easily be that the sex part is the female orgasm and then the male's orgasm is, quote, post play, and I was like wow, mindful own. So I was wondering this word sex. How do we define sex and how should we define it? So in our culture, which is both may l dominated and Heteronormative, we use the word sex and intercourse as if they're one and the same, and there's so many problems with that. You know, in sex and for example, if people say don't have sex, like you know you'll get an s t I, which is bad messaging anyway. But you know a lot of times lesbians, are Gay Individuals Will Think, Oh, I'm not at risk for an s t I because they're thinking of penis and Vagina. So they don't use protection. Doctors are not specific. Even don't have sex. Was it the orgasm I'm not supposed to have? Is that the penis and the Vagina? And people are too embarrassed to ask. But the biggest issue, I think, is it just reflects and perpetuates the overvaluing of male sexual pleasure and the devaluing of female pleasure. We are naming, we are saying the most important act is the penis and the vagina, and now some people will and that everything that comes before is, you were saying, just for play, just to lead up to the main event, when that lead up is what is most likely to bring women to orgasms. So exactly I say in the book. If the tables were turned and it was women's pleasure we overvalued, we would call for play, sex and intercourse post play. I'm certainly not advocating that we turn the tables, but I am advocating that we equally value women's and men's most reliable route to orgasm and call the whole encounter sex, regardless of what's happening. And then we can break it down by the actual words, oral sex, manual stimulation, intercourse, but the whole thing should be considered sex if we're going to have gender equality in the bedroom. Hi, friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get my favorite electrolytes for free, yes, completely free, and the feedback we have received about element electrolytes from our audience is overwhelming. You guys love element and I'm so excited because our new offer allows new and returning customers to get free element and on top of that, they're super popular. Grape fruit flavor is back. If you've been having issues with intermitted fasting, electrolytes may just be the thing that you need. And or have you heard of something called the Keto flu? Here's the thing. The keto flu is not actually a condition. Keto flu just refers to a bundle of symptoms, headaches, fatigue, muscle cramps and insomnia that people experience in the early stages of Keto dieting. Here's what's going on. When you eat a low carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low Insulin in turn lowers the production of the hormone aldosterone. Now aldosterone is making the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. So low aldosterone on a Keto Diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. And even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. And for ICULAR, you need...

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You talk in the book about its potential purpose evolutionarily. What do you think is the purpose of the cleteral simulation? Is it to bond you to your partner? I mean one of the theories was that it helps women pick out a better mate because it's harder to achieve, so they would need a mat attentive to it. Yeah, just like why? Yeah, if if I knew that answer, I'd probably win the prize, because nobody really knows the like. There's there was a great book by Elizabeth Lloyd called the case of the female orgasm, and basically she went through about twenty theories all about why women orgasm, and there's so many. There's some that say, Oh, yes, it is better for procreation because the uterus contracts and pulls the sperm up. Then there's others that say it makes it releases all those feel good chemicals, makes you bond with your partner, and she debunked all of them in her book and she concluded that it was just like the reason men have nipples is because women need them. And she's basically said our orgasm is a fantastic bonus. We don't really need it, but it's great. Then there's two two theories that are interesting. One is the one you alluded to, that it's a feminist anthropological theory and instead of saying why do women orgasm, it says why do women mostly not orgasm from intercourse? And the answer is to help them pick a good partner out because a guy who is attentive to your needs in the bedroom, not just focused on himself, will be a better partner outside of the bedroom. So I love that theory. But there's another theory, and I think it came out after the book, or just maybe it isn't there, because it came out just as it was going to press, where there was this cool new theory where they found that there are certain mammals who ovulate when they have penetrative sex and they basically do that so that they can get pregnant. And for those mammals, they're clitterests is inside the vagina and they orgasm during penetration and they ovulate and they will get pregnant. And this theory goes that we used to be like that, but then, when we started living in groups and having sex a lot more than just to procreate, that we move to a monthly cycle, that that our ovulation was based on time cyclical versus on penetration, and that, to not confuse our bodies, are clitterists migrated from inside our vagina to outside. I don't know which theory I believe, but I can tell you orgasms are great and I think women should be having more of them. I agree. Those theories are both really fascinating. Yeah, so I was actually thinking about you're talking about orgasms being great. I was thinking about this because I was talking with a guy friend the other day. He was saying, can women really have multiple orgasms, and I was like yes, he's like really, like he's like it was blowing his mind and then I took a moment where I was like, Oh wow, I should really not take this for granted, the ability to, you know, have multiple orgasms. So orgasms. What are orgasms? What is the experience of an orgasm for a male versus a female? I was really interested by your research on that. Yeah, so an orgasm is the same whether it's a male or female. What it results in is there are these special capillaries in in a rectile tissue and what happens is when you're not arouse, the blood flows equally in and out of the capillaries, but when you are aroused, the blood flows in and it gets trapped, it doesn't come out and it builds up to a point of intensity and then the blood is released with rhythmic contractions of the pelvic floor muscles. And it's accompanied by a lot of other things, including the release of Oxytocin, which makes you feel warm and cozy and loving and all of that. And in fact there was a study where I love this study. They took descriptions of people's orgasms and then they took out anything that would give away the person's identity, like if they mentioned ejaculation or penis or vagina, they edited those words out. So they then gave those descriptions to sex therapists and gynecologists and neurologists and no one could tell the difference between a description written by a... or a woman. They all describe this incredible build up of tension and then a release of the tension accompanied by euphoric, peaceful feelings. Why, for men is it? You know, they have to have a much longer time before they can have that again, whereas women seemingly can have a lot. Like for me, and I'm just being an open book, I mean I could just do it all night and it doesn't take me long in between two like have another orgasm, like I can just do it over and over. Is that the way most women are? Yeah, well, I'm like that too, so I'll be an open book and we all not. For some women, they want multiple Orgasms, their act, you know, and they're, you know, a better word for them actually that I learned along the line is sequential. They happen like boom, boom, boom boom, and the reason is that we don't have a refractory period, which is a period of time in which another for men, it's actually another ejaculation is impossible and it's it seems to be due the latest sciences. It seems to be due to levels of prolactin in the body. And so there are there are a few men, very very few, very rare. There's been studies of men who can have multiple orgasms. And the interesting thing it's very rare, and I always tell people when I explain these studies, don't run out and try to do this, like it's sort of like women trying to squirt when they're not squirters. Like, don't do things. Don't make your body do things it doesn't do. Enjoy what it does. But these men seem to have. One thing they have is they have lower levels of prolactin circulating in their body, because prolactin is what causes that refractory period. The females. Prolactin levels affect that. No, I mean for some reason, and I don't I'm not like a big I don't know all the details, but we don't have those levels of prolactin that are released as in those that affects us in that way. So it's so no. It's so funny because I write about the orgasm gap, which is, you know, the finding that when women and men get it on the women are having substantially fewer orgasms than the men and it's a cultural problem. But then I'm always getting somebody writing that's not true, the orgasm gap goes the other way because women can have more. It's like, no, no, no, that's not the point. The point is when we're having these sexual encounters where half the population is having, you know, no, orgasms are way fewer. That's the orgasm gap and it's not biological. It's not because our orgasms are difficult or elusive, because we know how to do it when we're alone and we also orgasm more when we're with other women. So it's related to the way we do heterosexual sex. I definitely want to dive into that some more. Some last quick questions about what we're talking about. This is just a granular question. You said how the experience of the orgasm is seemingly the same between the genders. Is the actual time length of the actual orgasm occurrence the same? Do you know? Or does it vary, or is it longer for one? That is a great question that I vaguely know the answer to somewhere in the recesses of my sex nerdy brain, but I can't pull it up right now. But so don't. This is just coming up from what I remember, so don't quote me. Well, you quote me because I'm right here saying it. But I think they're also pretty similar. Yet there is human variation in terms of how long an orgasm lasts, with some lasting longer than others, particularly for women. And this is super random, I had James Nestor on the show for his book breath and he talks about how there's a rectile tissue in the nose. I was wondering, have you heard about that and why we don't have orgasms in our nose? Oh, that is so interesting. No, that is new to me. There's a rectile tissue in our nose. Sea I'm so focused on studying the genitals. I had no idea. Tell me about that. I'll send you the link. And his book is so amazing, all about breathing and yeah, breathing, but yeah, so, apparently there's a rectile tissue in the nose and there's actually this condition called honeymoon, Niti's, I think again. Okay, don't quote me on that, and it has something to do I have to look it up again, but something to do with women getting or I don't know if it's women a man, but getting aroused, making you like sneeze and like. There's some connection there. Now, how interesting. Well, I know that there is also a lot and I don't know if he talked about this, but her norms are for real like that. We are sometimes attracted to people based on...

...their smell. Yeah, yeah, now I'm just thinking in my head. You're talking about the fair enomes. How do you say it? Fair enomes? Yes, I was thinking about it because have you I don't watch a lot of reality television. I don't really watch any, but I don't know why. I just love the show love is blind. Have you seen it on Netflix? I've heard of it. I want to watch it. Yes, I've been thinking about a lot because I just finished the second season and the contestants basically talk to each other through walls. They don't see each other and they quote fall in love and they propose and then they meet each other in real life. And I was watching the last episode last night actually, and they're having this intense debate because they're trying to push the idea that love is blind. But I was thinking about it and I think going back to our use of the word language, like we need to have different words for love, but this is just such a tangent. I don't know that love is blind because there is is that aspect of fair enoms and like physical compatibility and romantic attraction. Like can you just, you know, leave that out? So maybe that's a topic friend of another day. Yeah, I don't think it's blind. I mean I think we know. I mean there's research that shows that the way someone looks, the way someone smells is going to influence our attraction to them. Maybe not our love for them as a friend or as a person, but in terms of sexual attraction, you know, and it's not like we're all just attracted to the most you know, movie stare gorgeous, like it's it's an idiosyncratic, unique thing that happens, this chemical reaction between people, and actually this stuff tells into a nice other topic that you talk about, which is the role of should we separate the cultural implications of while sex and intercourse and sexual relations between two people and whether or not it is in the context of a relationship or if it's this whole hooking up thing? You talk a lot about hooking up culture. What are the stats on how men versus women orgasm during hooking up feel about it afterwards, you know, like the double standard, shame, slut shaming. What are your thoughts about all of that how it presents in culture today? Yeah, so, I mean I think hooking up is not new. That's one thing to know first of all. Like there's this narrative out there that this generation is hooking up and we didn't in our older generation, and the research isn't. Is Pretty clear about that. Hook ups have been going on for a long time. They used to have a different name, though, one night stands, etcetera. So it's not this new thing. But we do know that Hook up culture is not very satisfying to most women, not not all women, that the orgasm gap is the biggest in Hook up sex, and I just taught this class and some of my students comments were so fascinating to me. So we know that like that is where the gap is the biggest and why it's also because there's a huge oral sex gap in hookups. Men are much more likely to receive oral sex than women in HOOKUPS and like the women to be really proographic. The women in my class told me that the way hookups go for them, not always, but typically it's a blow job followed by intercourse and period. So nothing really for her. And there's a lot of evidence now too. This is that a lot of times men are doing things they've seen in porn in hookups, like slapping, choking, even anal sex, which can be really painful and dangerous if you don't talk about it, you know, prepare for it, but they don't know that, because I'm not blaming men, they've seen this imporn and so the bottom line is, you know, hookups are here to stay, but to me it's really an example of the sexual revolution of the sixties made it acceptable for women to have intercourse before marriage, outside of marriage, but it did nothing to ensure that those encounters would be equally pleasurable for both, and we know some of the women in my class were saying. You know, hookups can be empowering and you can get your needs met, but it definitely takes a lot of effort and a lot of clear communication and a lot of this is what I want, which many young women have not been socialized to feel empowered to do so, speaking to that and the role of communication. So I'm wondering where does the responsibility lie in addressing this pleasure gap? Is it up to women to learn how to receive this pleasure or achieve this pleasure themselves? It's...

...interesting because I'm speaking back. I was thinking about this. For me, since I was playing around more with vibrators and my and myself before with partners, I think it actually gave me a more for at least for me, a more beneficial experience when I was actually having intercourse, because I came prepared with skills and like knowing what worked for me and what didn't, compared to some of my friends I know who were having sex from much younger ages and so they were kind of learning in the context of being with a mail. So, you know, actually closing this pleasure gap where do we start? Do we start with masturbation? Yes, well, I think we start. It depends if we're talking about closing it culturally or in individual bedrooms. But if we're talking about in individual bedrooms, masturbation is in a sense shall step because you know, the first step to orgasm and with a partner is getting or the most essential step. Actually, it's really important but underutilized. An obvious advice is you have to get the same stimulation alone as you do with a partner. And you know, we know men are getting that stimulation. The stimulation of masturbation is very similar to the stimulation of intercourse, whereas the way women pleasure themselves do so by touching themselves externally, sometimes alone and sometimes coupled with penetration. But yet when we are with male partners, were like, Oh, maybe I don't need that, go right to penetration. So the and every woman needs something that's slightly different to orgasm. Everybody's genital nerves are positioned a bit differently. So the first step to orgasm something with a partner is orgasm by yourself, and know what brings you to orgasm and then transfer that to partner sex with the masturbation, because I mentioned in the beginning how you talk about the history of the vibrator in your book. Wondering if you could tell listeners a little bit about that history because it is fascinating. Yes, I can, but unfortunately, since the book came out, that history, which has been widely talked about in this has been debunked. Oh No, yes, so I can't really talk about it with accuracy anymore. So, but we could still talk about how great vibrators are and I could debunk all the myths surrounding them. That would be great. So, Um, can I say what they used to think it was? Sure, so. What they used to think it was with the vibrator was so did the whole thing it debunked. Even the fact that women would go see doctors to relieve these hysteria symptoms and the doctors would basically press on their clitter is is yes, it's all been debunked. It came from a book that someone wrote that apparently no one fact checked well enough and it became so important, such widely known, like it's in text sex therapy textbooks, it's all over in a paper just came out saying like basically, this was false news. Just to go like broader topics beyond that. I feel like that happens with a lot of things and it's concerning. You know, like there's some you know, a fact will be established that was never fact checked and then it just wants it in filth traits literature and it just needs to get in like one official publication and then you can quote that publication. So it's really hard to undo, you know, something like that that has taken off. It really isn't. It is very concerning, very concerning. Okay, so, if that's not what was happening, if vibrators were not invented to relieve doctor's tired hands from pressing on women's clearteresses when they were having hysteria symptoms, do we know what led to the invention of the vibrator? No, we don't. We do know that it was invented. It was the fourth appliance to be in like electric appliance, to be invented, and we do know it used to be advertised in Women's magazine. is like a personal massager. We know that women have liked vibration for centuries. One thing I came across that I thought was fascinating was before electric trick vibrators. Women would put bees in a box because if you put a bunch of bees in a tight box, they go and it vibrates the box and they used to hold the box against their volvosh my goodness. Well, that is crazy. Yeah, I'm glad I have a vibrator and not a bunch of buzzing bees because like, what if the box opens? But it seems real dangerous, real fast. Oh my...

...goodness. Okay, yeah, actually I remember going back to my first vibrator experience. I remember being so not jealous, but I was so in awe because my friend who took me to get it, her relationship growing up with her mom sounds a lot more similar to your relationship growing up, where it was just like open, you know, all open, and her mom took her to get her first vibrator and I was just like wow, that would be so nice to have that open dialogue, you know, with your mom or just to be raised that way. So, going back to the vibrator, so I think one of the concerns people have is that you will become addicted, that you will, you know, learn how to have an orgasm only one way with your vibrator and that's a bad thing. What are your thoughts about that? Okay, have so many thoughts about that. Well, first of all, like that is true of any type of sexual stimulation. Like you get habituated. So if you always use your hands, you probably use your hands the same way and you'll always want to use your hands the same way. So it's not unique to vibrators. But the idea that you shouldn't need a vibrator like that's an idea that you should be able to orgasm with body parts, and especially a penis, and I think that's just really an outdated idea. And we know that women who use vibrators have easier and more frequent orgasms and less sexual pain. And you know, think about this is we don't tell men to not habituate. We don't say if you always orgasm from intercourse, you might always need intercourse. Why don't we switch it up so you don't always need the same thing? It's only when it comes to women's orgasms that we regulate and have these ideas that they should occur in a certain way. And you know, part of it also it goes to another myth that vibrators are going to threaten men, they're going to replace men and no, they're just a tool to get the job done faster and more efficiently. It's sort of like carpenters don't get addicted to power tools. I love that. Yeah, they just have a much easier time when they use them. And we also know that women's sexual satisfaction is highly correlated to a male partner's acceptance of her vibrator use. So my answer to that is if you always like your vibrator, then always use it. You can use it on yourself during intercourse, you can teach your partner to use it on you, you can use it on yourself while your partner kisses you caresses other parts of your body. There are so many fun ways to incorporate a vibrator into sex. And here's something else that isn't in the book that I've discovered and learned recently from a wonderful urologist named Rachel Ruben, who basically, she says penises are just big clitteresses, which they are just outside of the body, and penises love vibration too, and your partner, if you're vibrating while his penis is down there, he's going to catch what I call vicarious vibes and he's going to enjoy it too. Hi, friends, one of the most valuable things that I do every single night of my life is my infrared sauna session. The brand that I use is sun lighten. I did a lot of research on Infred Saunas before deciding on them. Their SAUNAS are so high quality. They're low e M F and what I really love is they have a solo unit. That's what I have and it's really great. If you live in a small apartment, might be moving. It's just really an amazing investment and they have incredible deals and offers on it. Right now you can actually get up to two hundred dollars off with the Code Melanie Avalon. Or if you're talking to a rap just tell them that I sent you and, like I said, that will be up to two US off, and that will also get you ninety nine dollar shipping. Normally the shipping it's like six dollars, so that's a really, really big deal. And if you do purchase a sauna, forward your proof of purchase to podcast at Melanie Avalon Dot Com and I will also send you a signed copy of my book. What when wine if you'd like to learn more about the science of Sauna to resources, I interviewed the founder of Sunlight in, Connie Zach. I'll put a link to that in the show notes, and I also recently did an epic blog post all about the science of Sauna. Will also put that in the show notes. All right. Now back to the show. Question about the actual effect on our clitterists from the vibrators. So one of the things I've heard is that it's bad if you use a vibrator because you know, if you get used to needing more and more stimulation, then you'll always need more and more stimulation. Does anything actually happen with the nerves? You talked about some rabbit studies with vibrators, like, is there a tolerance effect? Does... increase or decreased nerves? Yeah, we don't really have research on humans, but there is a study where they use vibration on rabbits clitterests which are strikingly similar to female human clitter Istis. Oh Really? Yeah, and they generated more nerves. It's not just the opposite. They became more responsive. You know, people say, Oh, I need more and more, and I've heard that from some people, but I think. I think there could be a psychological component of people who are like terrified of their vibrator, you know, buying into into these myths and you know the idea that it desensitizes your clip. What does that mean? Does it mean that you get used to the stimulation, like habituated? Well, again, that's to any sexual stimulation. And two, if you do vibrate too hard, you know when you go numb or whatever, it's the same as riding a bike in your butt goes numb, get off a bike, take a break, it's fine. There was a study about sex toy injuries in the bottom line is they're exceedingly rare, exceedingly rare, and in fact the sexual health benefits were much more pronounced in this study. Okay, I love that. And question about integrating it with a partner. So I was so glad that you discussed this in the book and you just talked about it now, which is men's response to women wanting to use vibrators. So basically, I made a I made a decision in my head that if we just discussed at the beginning that I like integrating vibrators, you know, from the get go, and doing that the majority of men that I've been with have been very open to it. They've actually liked it, like they have no problem. There has been sometimes where I think they're a little bit emasculated, like they they feel like if is a vibrator involved, that means they're not able to, you know, do it themselves. What is your advice for women for how to bring this up with the man? Like how do we couch it? I think it's great that you have done that and you probably have great advice. I'd love to hear how you broach it with a new partner. But I would say very straightforward and you know, hey, my bringing my vibrator with me because I really like orgasm in that way and you know, I can teach you to use it. I can use it on myself, you know whatever. And if the guy says like no way, then I'd say no to the guy, not no, no, not no to the vibrator. If he said no, I'd be like okay, bye. Yeah, my experience has been so the way I couch it and phrase it, and it's because this is just the truth of the matter is, and it's actually something that you talked about in the book as well. I get. I don't know if it's spectator ing or I just I would get too in my head about feeling like the other person, and you talk about this too, like the pressure would be on the guy to help me have an orgasm, and that's really stressful for me. Like I don't want anybody to have to deal with that, like I know what will work, so everybody can just I just feel more comfortable if we can just all be on the same page at the beginning. Yeah, if they were to say no, then I mean not negotiable for me, but there is this issue still where they're fine with it, but I get this sense that they're masculated and I just don't know what to do with that. Like M H, I guess I can answer that both with a research study that's really sort of speaks to this that came out since the book was published, and also sort of a metaphor I use in the book that I think really helps men understand. So I'll start with the study. There was a study done by someone basically where they asked, you know, if you have sex with someone and she orgasms like from oral or manual or vibrator or intercourse, like, what's your reaction and the men felt most masculine, not surprisingly when she orgasm, but from intercourse. But what was surprising is they felt pretty equally masculine if it was from oral or manual but really less masculine if it was a vibrator. So it was like well, if I did it with my own body it was fine, and that's really a shame because it goes to the myth that the men should quote give a woman in Orgasm. Versus we're all responsible for our own sexual pleasure during a sexual encounter and in fact the best sexual encounters, ironically, are when both people are immersed in their own pleasure. And the metaphor I often use, and I use it in the book, is imagine if you and your partner were spending the day at the swimming pool and there was a raft there and... hopped on the raft and you hopped off the raft and you kissed on the raft, you kissed off the raft, you splashed on, you splashed off, just had a lovely day in the sun in the pool. You would not go home and call your friend and go oh, me and my raft had the best day together and Oh, my boyfriend was there too. You, you wouldn't even mention the raft. It was just a tool to enhance the swimming and a vibrator is the same. You're still having a sexual encounter with the other person. It's not like you're having a sexual encounter with your vibrator and that person happens to be there. You're still having an encounter with another person and the vibrator is just a tool to enhance the experience. I love that analogy so much. So actually transferring, you know, your own masturbation techniques to sexual encounters the partner. Do most things transfer? Do some things not transferred? If people are using vibrators, do you suggest that they get different types of vibrators when they're actually with a partner? Now I think everything can be transferated, transferred with communication and creativity. Now, some ways are harder than others. So, for example, if you use a little handheld vibrator, that's going to be easier to use on yourself during intercourse, for example, than a big magic wand. But you can certainly have full around be aroused have intercourse. He comes, then use the magic wand. And there are some people who masturbate by running water, for example in the bathtub or rhythmically squeezing their thighs together. Those are going to be a little harder to transfer than a vibrator, but they still can be done. I helped a client who the only way she could orgasm was with the run water. So they would have a sexual encounter, her and her partner, and it would be great and fun and he would orgasm and then they'd happen the bathtub and he would hold her while she ran the water. So anything can be transferred with communication and creativity. I love that. How do you feel about we touched on this a bit now, but so let's say a woman is very comfortable with herself and masturbating and has her technique for reaching an orgasm. I feel like all the magazines are like, but you need to be doing it this way and there's like a different way to do it. How do you feel about that? Like should we try to find different ways? Is it possible there are a lot of better ways of experience and orgasm, but we get complacent and do the one thing that we're doing. I guess I'm wondering, are there like different orgasms out there and I'll never know if I don't go looking for them? Yeah, so that's like another thing. I always think about what we do with men's orgasms. You don't find articles on the ten ways for men to orgasm. I mean you don't. You know, it's only when it comes to our orgasm there's always a fad, there's always a twenty ways to orgasm and you know, sure, experimentation is fun for fun sake, for learning about your body, but trying to think that there's an orgasm that's better than the one you're having, if you're still enjoying it, is Betty Datson used to say, an orgasm as an orgasm as an orgasm, meaning however you get it is fine, and I think that idea of these like the twenty ways to orgasm, just really buys into that really false orgasm hierarchy we have for women, that there's a better way, the best way, and if you look at a lot of those best ways, they generally involve something inside the vagina, which again is not the way most of US orgasm. I also felt really validated those stats in the book because when you think of a vibrator, I think a lot of us think of ones that are like dildos, that presumably have that purpose of putting inside of yourself. That's never been a thing for me and I've always just been like, am I the odd one out here? No, not at all. Yeah, so reading those stats was very helpful. Also involved with all of that. So you do have a lot in the book about our actual anatomy and you talk about how, you know, you find anatomy a little bit dry, but it is really important. So how important is it that we actually understand the anatomy of our clitterest? And maybe you could talk a little bit about that actual anatomy, because you have exercises in the book where you actually look at your clitterest. Is that important to do? I think so. And in treating women who never orgasm, the first step is always teaching them anatomy and sending them home to look at themselves. Because, in the words of another author, Sherry Winston, if you don't know...

...what you have, how can you play with it thoroughly and well and teach a partner to you know, and it does take effort. You know, men touch their penis from the time their little boys several times a day to urinate. We don't ever have to look at ourselves and so many times we've been socialized that it's ugly or Ikey, and that's not going to make you feel very good sexually either. So I think it's important, really important, to not only know what your anatomy is but to appreciate its beauty. Is that when we have an Orgas on that the clitter is is actually disappears. Yes, during the plateau stage, stage right before an orgasm, the clitter is like pulls back and it becomes hard to find. It's a great irony. And then I love how you said in the book that there's all this debate about is it like how many bulbs there are, or there's like debates about what the anatomy actually is? Yes, we just it's so interesting how little we still know about female genital anatomy. The internal clitter is is wasn't discovered till the late nineties. What the late nineties, Yep Helen O'CONNELL published her first study and it was until two thousand and five that there they did the first M R I of the internal clitter is is. So there's and even when I was trying to write the anatomy chapter, I can tell you I shed more tears writing that chapter and almost like you know, really like practically just had a breakdown because I would find conflicting information, so many things that aren't known about our own our genital anatomy. So it's really important to know your own anatomy. I think it's an essential step to empowerment, to sexual empowerment. That really really speaks to, I guess, just how big this cultural issue is. Two things you just mentioned. On they hand, you talk about how we have this often this intrinsic feeling of we don't want to look at it or it's ICKY. So I very much the reason I asked the question about looking is because I was like I can't. So I'm so Um, you know, like I'm so team clutter it. I do my nightly orgasm for help. It's like my one orgasm a day goal. But I have this so like when you were talking the book about like looking at yourself, I'm like I just don't know that I can. I find that fascinating. I guess that goes to, you know, religious upbringing, and I highly doubt that that's evolutionary where we can't look at a part of our body. Know, you know, and I've had clients who say the same thing. I had one client who, you know, really empowered, considered herself a feminist, and she was like, Oh, I can't, I can't, and then she did and she's like it's so ugly, you know. And and we spent a lot of time working on that until she to look at herself and say, you know what, it's kind of beautiful. You know. Certainly I would never like push or force anyone to do anything, you know, and you seem like you're totally empowered and you're having orgasms and you're bringing your you know, vibrator to bed. So, you know, part of me says, well, maybe you're okay not looking, but the fact that such an empowered woman is having trouble looking is something to look at, and I'm no pen intended, it's something to really look at and unpack. And why why is it so scary to look, quote down there? I find it so, so fascinating, like I'm okay looking externally, but the exercises of like opening up and everything looking internally is what makes me feel very uncomfortable. So I should work with my therapist on this and I think, yeah, so that the two things I just think speak to how much this is a problem that might be ingrained, as you know, women who do feel that that discomfort with looking at themselves. And then what you just said about the shocking lack of research. I mean that is shocking, that lack of research. That is shocking to me, isn't yes, and I just read something else too. I mean it's just like the misogyny. And again I'm not blaming men. I'm married to a man, I've been married to the same man for like thirty seven years. I have man friends people. I do not blame men for this, I blame culture. But there is so much misogyny still, not just around sex but even in sexual medicine. There someone just did account about how many studies there are on a rectile dysfunction versus sexual pain, and it's it's astounding how little attention is paid to women's sexuality. I was speaking with a friend of mine who's a gynecologist and she's like, we don't learn about sex in in medical school. We we don't. We hardly learn about the clitterist, basically an anatomy,...

...let alone sexual pleasure. And these are kind of cologists. I've actually started taking note because I read a lot of health related books, having this show and I've started paying attention to when a rectile dysfunction is mentioned. Do they mention female issues on the other side? And it's very rare. I don't know. There's just so much attention around the male side of things and not the female. That made me think of one just random question. The actual clitterest and the anatomy. Actually, I had another guest on this show and she was saying that everything is the clitterest, like even the g spot, like the whole thing. Do you have thoughts on that? Well, so everything isn't the clitterest, but the clitterest is the biggest part of our anatomy. It's a vast internal and external organ the hood and the Gland. The Hood and the glands are the only part that can be seen externally, but there's also legs and bulbs and in fact the g spot, and the real name for it is the clitteral Eurethro vaginal complex because it includes part of the clitter, is part of the the legs, part of the Eure throne, part of the vaginal wall. But there is some thinking that maybe we could get away with, not get away with but get away from this horrible hierarchy. We have a vaginal orgasms are better than clitteral. If we called our whole unit, our whole genitals instead of eve involved in Vagina, if we had one name for the whole interconnected unit. And Helen O'CONNELL, who's the person who discovered the internal clitterest and made it public, says what, it's the biggest organ down there. Why don't we call the whole thing a claris? Okay, Gotcha. Has there been any update? You talk in the book about how you propose that we use a different name for clitter is, is to make it more perchable. Have you seen an anything culturally with that? No, no, that's so funny. That was like where the whole book idea part of it. Besides, my students started as thinking, you know, we have more nicknames for the penis than any other word in the human language and they're all like people's names, like it gives them an entity. That's where I got the idea, let's nickname the clitterest like as someone's name, to give it more legitimacy. I have seen. I do think culture is changing. I think more and more people are naming their clitter is talking about it talking about cliteral stimulation, talking about female orgasm, but I don't think we have a name like Dick, like we have. We don't yet have a name that everybody's comfortable saying. I wonder if that will happen. I would love it. Yeah, I proposed in the book, as you know, I proposed either Tory, because it's short for, you know, it's in the word clitterest, or Cleo, but neither have caught on, although my students did make me a shirt that says I love Tori, so I love that. Two other quick questions about the clitter Ist. Is it true, and you talk about this in the book, but is it true that it has the most nerves of anything in our body? So that statue. Hear over and over that it has four thousand to six thousand nerve endings. That's another one of those things that's made its way into culture and is not scientifically accurate. What is accurate is that there is about the same amount of nerve endings on the glands of the clitterest is there is on the hood of the Penis. It's just that there it is the most densely packed. So it is the smallest size with the most nerve endings. As another author said, take all the nerve endings in the head of the penis and put them in a pencil eraser. So it's the most densely packed nerve endings of anywhere on the human body. And is it true that it's the only or is it an organ? The only organ first pleasure? Yes, that was said by masters and Johnson's eons ago, that it's it's unique in the whole human body. It's it has no other purpose but sexual pleasure, whereas the Paenis, you also use it to pee or to procreate. There's more and more people kind of doing research. Maybe it does have a function in terms of, you know, procreation, et Cetera, but nobody's found it yet for sure. So at this point the idea stands that is the only organ in the human body just for pleasure. What a cool organ we have. That is so cool. I actually find that a very, very valid argument for at least the religious context of everything, because I really like reevaluating what I was taught growing up and what is actually happening. I mean, like that's a pretty valid argument for religion. You know, why would we...

...have an organ entirely devoted to pleasure if we weren't supposed to be having this pleasure. Do you know? Is there a lot of discussion of masturbation in the Bible? That is so interesting. There's a wonderful person named Rev Bev. If you look her up on Youtube, she's a minister and very sex positive. She basically talks about that the Bible is not against pleasure. It's against hedonism, like pleasure above all else, but it's not against pleasure and that, according to her, the Bible says absolutely nothing about masturbation. It for sure says nothing about female masturbation. And the story that is often told against masturbation is the story of Oman who spilled his seed. So he was his brother died and in the old days when that happened, the brother was supposed to have intercourse with the wife, the widow, to create a child, and so Oman was supposed to do this, and it said, but he didn't. Instead he spilled his seed and you know, God was very mad at him. And according to Rev Bev, that is not about masturbation, that's about pulling out before he ejaculated in the vagina. I remember reading that study because, like I said, I was raised very religious. I went to a Christian high school. We read all the all the stories, and I remember reading that when I was relatively young. I mean I'm assuming I knew what masturbation was at the time. I remember reading that and I did not at all think that that meant masturbation, like it never occurred to me that that was what people thought, that that meant. What about other cultures? Do you know? Is Masturbation? Is it? I don't even know if they used the word sin. In other cultures. Is it forbidden? And their religions it's forbidden and some, but not all. There are some religions that are fine with it and some that aren't, which, again, whenever I hear that some religions say this, some religions say that, my response is, ah, that means there really is no universal truth on this and it's it's it's so culturally bound. But we also know, like when I work with religious clients, and you know, masturbation is the most empirically supported technique to help women learn to orgasm, like it's you know, I tell them like this is based on science. You know that. We know this helps. It's it's like you're you know, I sometimes have to say like I'm your doctor, this is I'm sending you home with a prescription to masturbate. And we also know that masturbation, instead of being, you know, all those things we used to hear, makes warts on your hands and all these Harry Palms and all that that. In fact we know that it's not the masturbation but masturbation induced orgasms. They're good for immune functioning, they're good for sleep, they're good for stress reduction and even we even know that infants will touch themselves. There's some touching going on even in the womb. Like one of the best quotes I've ever heard is God made us so our hands can reach our genitals. There's a function for that. There's a reason for that. It wasn't just to tempt us. I love that. Do you still work with clients? I do. I do. Do you work with specific topics with clients as a sex therapist? I've never been to a sex therapist because they're a main trend of issues that people are coming to sex therapy for. Yeah, so, you know, most people who seek me out. Sometimes it's not all sex there, but I see people for, you know, depression, anxiety, like you know up you know eef. So it's not all sex therapy, but the people who seek me out for sex therapy, the two most common concerns I see are, and this is probably because they're the topic of my books, people seek me out for diminished sexual desire and inability to orgasm. But I also work with all kinds of stuff, like I you know, right now I'm working with someone who is trying to figure out their sexual and gender identity. You know, somebody who is, you know, coming to terms with what it means that they're interested in Kinky sex and, you know, kind of letting go a shame of that. So you know, I've worked with couples who stopped having sex and want to restart. So it is sort of anything goes. But there are certain things that, just like any specialty, like, I know certain things better than others and if I get a client who is not in my wheelhouse, I'll refer them to someone who is. This actually speaks to a...

...topic as well, just about therapy and therapists. I think there's been a lot of forward progress with this, but I I still feel like culturally there's this idea that if you have a therapist that there's something wrong with you or that there's something wrong, and it's just interesting to me because it's so important to me that I have a therapist and I've had a therapist for probably seven years or so, not the same one for me. I'm so open about it and I just think it's so normal and so helpful and I think everybody should have a therapist. But I forget that. I do think culturally people aren't always open to it. Like this week even I was going to my my cryotherapy appointment and I was talking with the girl and we were talking about our day and I was like, yeah, I just came from a therapist and she was like, oh well, you know, I hope everything's okay with that. I was like, oh no, it's not, like like it's I just find it really interesting the cultural response to to therapy. Do you have thoughts about that? I think therapy is wonderful. I mean I've seen people make wonderful change changes. I have many clients who just come to have a space to talk freely, to gain insight on themselves. Like I I think it's I mean I wish people were more open and I think it's varied by areas of the country. Like in New York and California, I think you're more likely to hear everyone talk about their therapists than maybe in like North Dakota or something, you know. But no, I think therapy is I love being a therapist because I love love helping people feel heard and understood and make changes, and I've had a therapist myself. I think most good therapists should be in therapy themselves to constantly work on their issues and make sure their stuff doesn't get in the way and also just for self understanding and insight. And you know, I also think like we don't listen to each other. It's so rare that someone can joe us, listen carefully, reflect back what you're feeling and not either make it about them or try to fix it. There is so much power and just being heard, just being validated. I could not agree more. I was reading about I brought this this woman on recently, all about the bio field and healing energy, but she talked about how this is bad, because I don't have any of the details. She talked about some of the first I think it was the evolution of hypnosis, maybe, but how? How all the way it started was the therapists. He would just sit there and provide like unconditional acceptance basically, and people would be healed of these issues. But basically at that idea of just having that other person listening and accepting. There's so much power to that. And also in the book listeners there's a whole lot about the role of mindfulness and how important that is actually and addressing the potential pleasure gap and the issues that happen with men and women and sexual relations. That helps me a lot because I mentioned this earlier. But what I get in my head about is it's so funny because it's like performance issues, but it's not really about me. It's about feeling like I have to fulfill the stereotype of having this orgasm or it's just really, really interesting. It's hard to be in the moment when you're so worried about fulfilling these stereotypes that culture puts upon us. And I guess it does go back to the fact that men orgasm so easily and women don't. is at the root of that? Well, I think or women actually orgasm just as easy as men when they're quitter systimulated. There's studies that show that we when we masturbate, we both orgasm like easily and within minutes. So I think it's it's partially that, but I also think we're just anxious beings. Like the power, I mean the power of our mind, is so interesting in the sense that, like, I love mindfulness and I love thinking about it and learning about it, and I just I'm reading this book myself right now called self compassion, and I love this quote that the author, NEF has. She talks about how the past only exists in our memory, in the future and our imagination, and we're all really need to be in the here and now. And you know, our brains are phenomenal right, because we can learn from the past by thinking about it. We can solve problems by thinking forward. But nine times out of ten, when we're thinking about the past or the future, we're not solving problems or learning from the past, we're just ruminating. And so I mean, getting back to sex, that to have an orgasm requires completely turning off your thinking brain and because you cannot be having an orgasm thinking am I going to have an orgasm? How do I look? Oh, I forgot to return that email. Like to be or asthmic requires a complete immersion in your bodily sensations and...

...having your mind and body in the same place. And we know that the brain state of deep mindfulness meditation is actually very similar, if not identical, to the brain state right before orgasm. You're not thinking, you're just in the present and it benefits men too, because they get anxious and am I gonna make her come? Am I going to come too soon? Is My erection going to go away? But we also know that women do think more about during sex, about things that they've left undone hopes that email, or about if they're doing it right, if they look okay, if they smell okay, if their partners happy. So I do think there's some socialization effects of our brains wandering more during sex and mindfulness is the antidote to that. I'm glad you brought that up because that was one of my questions. How much is there a top down versus the bottom up to orgasm? So they'll say that you can think your way to an orgasm. Is that possible? So there are some very rare women who can orgasm without any touch. They can think themselves to orgasm, but it's very rare. So yes, just like there are women who can orgasm from just breast stimulation or just, you know, penetration, there's some that can orgasm from thinking alone. But again it's pretty rare. Hi Friends, so what I'm about to say may include some disturbing content, so if young ones are listening, you may want to skip ahead. On Valentine's Day two, I experienced sexual battery by a man at a massage parlor. I felt so helpless and so scared while it was happening and afterwards I was really, really scared to tell anybody. I'm so glad that my friends encouraged me to tell the police, and I'm so glad that the police believed me and that the man is now in jail. And ever since sharing my story, you guys have been so supportive. So many people have applauded me for telling the police, saying that something like that had happened to them too, and they never told anybody. I started looking into the statistics and they are pretty shocking. So sexual assaults are most likely the most prevalent crime in the US and they are also the most underreported. Every sixty eight seconds, an American is sexually assaulted. So I was one of those. Every nine minutes that victim is a child. Meanwhile, only twenty five out of every one thousand perpetrators will end up in prison and only five percent of sexual assault reports filed have ever been proven false. Two percent of all juvenile sexual assault victims are female. Of Adult Rape Victims are female, and in two thousand nineteen over six hundred and fifty two thousand, six hundred and seventy six women were raped and nearly one million women were victims of sexual assault. I believe this is a huge, huge problem happening in our society. It's one of the crimes where there's not usually evidence. It's not like a physical object was stolen or somebody outwardly injured or killed. It's basically your word against the perpetrator, and so it can be really, really scary to tell somebody and stand up for yourself, but I want to encourage you that we can change this. We can speak up. So if something happens to you, I encourage you. Please, please, tell somebody. I promise you you're not crazy. The thing that really convinced me to go to the police was it wasn't so much about me but about stopping this man from doing this to somebody else. If you feel like someone crossed a boundary, they probably did. People don't usually question things that are appropriate and normal, and as parents, I encourage you to have these conversations with your children in whatever time and way you feel comfortable. I think we can make change here. It's just about spreading awareness and taking a stand and speaking out. So thank you, everybody so much for the support. I love you all. You are amazing and let's change this. So, like I always say, you got us. Okay, back to the show. So this is a very granular question and I don't know if you would know the answer, but the role of the mind and the orgasm. Does it vary between women where? So, let's say we have like all these women and they have a baseline level of stress which would be impeding their orgasm. How powerful is actually turning on the physical stimulus of the Clitteri ist like for some women. Could they be stressed? But if they, you know, stimulate themselves right physically, that will pull them in and break that barrier and then it won't matter that they were stressed before. Or is it possible just be so stressed that you're not going to have an orgasm. Both are true. So I think for some people we do know that masturbation decreases stress and in fact, in a study where they ask people, why do you masturbate? Like to go to sleep or relieve stress, was the number one answer given right or number three, right behind I'm horny. So yeah, we know that if you can get at yourself there it's going to help, because an orgasm releases all kinds...

...of feel good hormones. So would somebody be able to pull out their vibrator in some lube and really focus on the sensations and let go of what's troubling them absolutely, or would it be like, no matter what you do, you can't stop thinking about your what you're stressing about? That can happen to both. Can Happen. Well, speaking to that, with all the chemicals, the endorphins and the hormones, and I really do have an orgasm everyday challenge and it's because I had Dr Stephanie asked him on the Book and she had a seven day orgasm challenge and she talked about all of the health benefits and so I did that and I was like, Oh, I'm just turning and this into it every day. So I literally like schedule it. It good for you. Good for you. And do you find that it has helped your stress level? Oh, I think so, especially once it becomes very habitual. Definitely, because then I'm much fascinated by because by itself it has all these health benefits and it releases all these hormones. But then once it becomes part of your routine as well, I think just the anticipation and having as part of the ritual adds on to that. So I found it to be very, very beneficial. The one issue is that, and this is the way I am with all things, I'm such a perfectionist, such a like craziness with my schedule that now if I don't I feel bad, which like I should like. I'm like hard on myself. So right, like, oh no, I didn't get to my orgasm today, like, yeah, I'm like that with my walking and Yoga, you know, because I'm a perfectionist too, although I'm working on it me too, and mind fulness helps with that too. So yeah, but I think have you heard the saying don't shoot on yourself? Oh, I like that. No, yeah, so that's what I say to you. If you can do it every day, Great. If if you know, days get busy, don't show on yourself. I like that. I like the one that's like. It's a really common one. Don't let is it perfect be the enemy of good? Yes, exactly, I love that too. Well, this has been honestly, one of my favorite conversations yet on the entire show and I cannot thank you, Dr Ments, for everything that you are doing. Like we talked about all throughout this episode, it is so, so needed and it's really affecting, I think, most women everywhere and we need more people like you who are providing the science and shining a flashlight on what's happening in our culture and how, hopefully, we can change. What do you think is the future of all of this? I want to make myself obsolete and thank you for saying that Nice compliment about and this has been one of my favorite podcasts I've ever been on. You asked such great questions and you read the book so carefully. I'm just so pleased and honored. But I really honestly sometimes I can't believe I had to write this book and that you know, you know, like we should be so over this by now. So and it's hard for me to know sometimes because I'm so surrounded now by other sex positive people. Like have things change or am I just more and more immersed in a world where everybody is on the same page? I don't know the answer to that, but I'M gonna hold out hope that things are changing and that in our future we will have sex positive, comprehensive sex aid where people learn about the clitter as they learn about orgasms. We name the clitter is. We don't use the word sex and intercourse as if they're one of the same. There isn't an orgasm gap. I think we'll take a long while to get there, but I think we're on the right road. I love that I've had that same experience. I've actually been having that experience a little bit during this conversation today, like having come from my upbringing and my awareness and my thoughts surrounding all these topics to where I am now. It's hard for me, because I'm now I'm so much more open about it. It's hard for me to know, like, is it just I that changed, or is there change in society as well? So I hear you. It's hard to know, but regardless, it doesn't change the fact that your work is definitely helping everything move forward in that direction. So thank you so so much. Actually, the last question that I ask every single guest on this show and it's just because I realize more and more each day how incredibly important mindset is. So what is something that you're grateful for? Oh, I love that question. I am grateful for so many things that it's hard to pinpoint one, but I am most great. Can I say two things? I'm yes, of course, I'm most grateful right now for my health and my body like that, I can my body can move in Yoga,...

...can walk, it can orgasm. I'm to me, that's a huge foundation. And I'm also incredibly grateful for all of the supportive people in my life who I love and who loved me and who have been there for me through, you know, good and bad and everything in between. I love that so, so much. Well, thank you, Dr Mence. I am so incredibly grateful for your work. Like I said at the beginning, I would just want women everywhere to read your book. How can women and men because, oh, I should mention, I should mention there is a chapter in the book for men so if ladies, if or men who are listening, if you would like to help spread this awareness and education in the male population, they can just read this one chapter that speaks directly to them. So that was really smart to put that in there. How can people best all your work? So the best way to follow my work is on any social media. INSTAGRAM is where I'm most active, but I'm also on facebook, twitter and Pinterest, all with the same handled Dr Laurie Mins D R L A U R I. E M I N T Z same. That's the same as my website, and if you go to my website you'll find links to buy my books on Amazon or Barnes and noble and all my social media et Cetera. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for listeners. will put links to everything in the show notes. We just have to stay in touch and hopefully you can come back again on the show in the future. I would absolutely love too. That would be great. Thank you for having me. It's been such a delight. Thank you. Bye. Thank you, bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie avalon bio hacking podcast. For more information, you can check out my book what when Wine Lose Weight? And feel great with Paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine, as well as my blog, MELANIE AVALON DOT COM. Feel free to contact me at podcast at Melanie Avalon Dot Com and always remember you got this.

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