The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Episode 1 · 5 months ago

#157 - Will Bulsiewcz: Fiber Fueled, The Gut Microbiome, Fermentables & Sprouting, Improving Digestion, Unnecessary Gluten Restriction, Reversing Food Sensitivities, Whole Grains & Heart Disease, And More!



2:00 - IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life: Join Melanie's Facebook Group At For A Weekly Episode GIVEAWAY, And To Discuss And Learn About All Things Biohacking! All Conversations Welcome!

2:20 - Follow Melanie On Instagram To See The Latest Moments, Products, And #AllTheThings! @MelanieAvalon

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4:40 - FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App At To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

5:40 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Non-Toxic Beauty Products Tested For Heavy Metals, Which Support Skin Health And Look Amazing! Shop At For Something Magical! For Exclusive Offers And Discounts, And More On The Science Of Skincare, Get On Melanie's Private Beautycounter Email List At! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz:

12:30 - Will's Personal Story

20:50 - His Gastroenterology Practice

23:10 - Working Within A Flawed Medical System

23:20 - Conflicting And Confusing Nutritional Information 

25:00 - What Is The Microbiome?

28:50 - Trillions Of Bacteria

30:15 - The Good & The Bad Microbes

30:50 - The 5 Main Kinds Of Microbes Inside Us

33:15 - Archaea

35:30 - Treating Constipation

38:10 - FEALS: Feals Makes CBD Oil Which Satisfies ALL Of Melanie's Stringent Criteria - It's Premium, Full Spectrum, Organic, Tested, Pure CBD In MCT Oil! It's Delivered Directly To Your Doorstep. CBD Supports The Body's Natural Cannabinoid System, And Can Address An Array Of Issues, From Sleep To Stress To Chronic Pain, And More! Go To To Become A Member And Get 40% Off Your First 3 Months, With Free Shipping!

41:00 - Magnesium

42:20 - Pelvic Dyssynergia

45:15 - Having A "Twisty" Colon

46:15 - How We're Feeling Vs What Our Lab Tests Say

48:50 - Long Term Elimination Diets

55:25 - Dysbiosis

57:00 - Is There Such Thing As A Perfect Gut?

1:01:35 - Enzymes

1:05:10 - Gluten Restriction

1:10:45 - Whole Grains

1:13:00 - Fructans And Glyphosate

1:16:30 - Whole Grains & Heart Disease

1:20:30 - Fiber

1:21:55 - TMAO

1:24:20 - Red Wine, Balsamic Vinegar And EVOO

1:26:40 - SUNLIGHTEN: Get Up To $200 Off AND $99 Shipping (Regularly $598) With The Code MelanieAvalon At MelanieAvalon.Com/Sunlighten. Forward Your Proof Of Purchase To, To Receive A Signed Copy Of What When Wine!

1:28:00 - Correlational Studies And Healthy User Bias

1:32:00 - Discourse Around The Nutritional Debate

1:34:35 - Fermented Foods Vs. Fiber 

1:40:15 - The Safety Of Home Fermentation

1:41:25 - Dead "Live" Active Cultures

1:42:55 - Sprouting

Healthcare system. They don't teach doctors or give them the time to talk about nutrition. We all know that we includes a very broad spectrum where it could be my high quality sour dough bread, but it could also be total junk food. They've looked at people going gluten free and their risk for having coronary artery disease. What happens to the person who does not have SILIAC disease and they go gluten free? The answer to that question is that in that study they found that people hadn't increased risk of having coronary artery disease. My responsibility as a medical doctor is to try to guide people towards better health. Welcome to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcasts, where we meet the world's top experts to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and biohack your life? This show it is really please keep in mind we're not dispensing medical advice and they're not responsible for any outcomes, and we experience from implementing the tactics mind hearing. Are you ready? Let's do this. Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Okay, friends, today's episode is with a legend in the Diet health sphere. I see this man's book everywhere. Dr B is so incredible. He is a multi New York Times bestseller, and what I really love about him, and I got this vibe from the book, but then it just manifested even more talking to him in today's episode. He's so comprehensive and I feel unbiased and open minded. I really, really enjoyed this conversation. I think it will help a lot of you guys so much, especially if you're existing in the Keto locarb carnivores here and have a fear of plants a little bit. I know I've been there, done that. So really I think this episode is going to help people all across the dietary spectrum and I can't wait to hear what you guys think. These show notes for today's episode will be at Melanie Avalon DOT COM, slash fiber fueled. Those show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. There will be two episode giveaways for this episode. One will be on my facebook group. I F bio hackers. Intermittent fasting plus real foods, plus life. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you on the pinned post at the top of the group to enter to win something that I love. And, friends, not many people take me up on that. You have a very, very good chance of winning. And then also check out my instagram, find the Friday announcement post there and again comment to enter to win something that I love. If you are enjoying the show, it would mean the absolute world, world, world, if you could take a brief moment and subscribe in Itunes and or write a brief itunes review. It helps so much more than most people realize. So thank you so much in advance for that. Okay, friends, my magnesium eight is now available. Yes, I am so excited. You guys were asking for it and it is here. It is, honestly, I promise you, the best magnuseum on the market. It has eight forms of magnesium and their most absorbable forms, no potentially problematic fillers, including rice, which is very common, and a lot of supplements including magnesium. For example, if you see a filler new MAG that is not magnesium, it is actually rice extract, rice holes, gum, Arabic and sunflower oil. My magnesium also has methylated basics to help with absorption, as well as chelated manganese, since magnesium can displace manganese in the body. It comes in a glass bottle to help prevent leaching of plastics into our bodies and the environment. Plus, it works. Did you know that magnesium is involved in over six hundred in sematic processes in the body, encompassing over of our bodies functions? It affects so many things, heart help, muscle recovery, neurotransmitter production, mood, G I, motility, especially sleep and relaxation. Most of us are deficient in magnesium because we used to get it from our diets, but our modern farming practices have made our food so depleted of magnesium. In fact, it's been estimated in the past one hundred years our soil has lost its magnesium. This is so, so shocking. That's why it can be crucial to take magnesium every single day, and my magnesium eight is the best on the market. You can get teen percent off at Avalon X dot us. A cupon code will also get you tempercent off. By other supplements, Sarapeptase, as well as all the supplements created by my fantastic partner, empty logic health. That is at Melanie avalon dot com slash empty logic. And yes, my magnesium three and eight is coming soon. That is a special form a magnuseum that specifically crosses the blood brain barrier to further support sleep and relaxation. A lot of you guys got an incredible discount code for that when you got my magnesium eight at launch, but if you didn't, you'll still be able to get it when it's available. If you want all the updates, which I highly recommend, get on my email list at avalon x dot US slash email list. A resource for you guys. If you're listening to this episode, you might struggle with food sensitivities, especially things like fiber. Dr B talks about the role of Fod maps, for example. In his book, as well as Lectin's, he does a good job of really help dismantling a lot of the fear surrounding them. That said, people still react to this stuff and that is why I created the APP food since guide. It's comprehensive catalog of over three hundred foods for eleven potentially problematic...

...compounds. These are things you may be reacting to, like those aforementioned, Fod maps and Lectins, as well as gluten. And yes, Dr be talks about gluten in his book and in this episode. solicillates, soul fights, bils, histamine, oxalates, whether or not something is a night shade and so much more. It is a top itunes APP. I just checked and it is numbers sweet sixteen in the itunes food and drinks charts. You can learn about the compounds, create your own list who share in print and finally, take charge for foods insitivities. You can get it at Melanie Avalon DOT COM, slash foods and skuide. And one more thing before we jump in. Have you cleaned up your diet and environment? Have you cleaned up your skincare and makeup? Did you know that Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity? These include endocrine disruptors which mess with our hormones, osigence which literally can cause our bodies to store and gain weight, yes, gain weight, and even carcinogens link to cancer. These compounds build up in our bodies and affect our health. Conventional Lipstick, for example, is often high and lead, and the half life of lead is up to thirty years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, thirty years later, half of that lead might have left your bones. It is so, so shocking. Thankfully, there's such an easy solution and it's an incredible solution, and that is beauty counter. Oh my goodness, I am obsessed with beauty counter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on and their products really work. Their makeup is incredible. Tina fey or all beauty counter makeup when she hosted the Golden Globes. That's how you know it's good makeup. And they have skincare for every skin type. Counter time, for example, is amazing for anti aging and counter control is incredible for acne and oily prone skin. I use their overnight resurfacing peel and vitamin CCRUM every single night of my life. They reflect effect. Mask is also a game changer, and they have sunscreen. Oh my goodness, get their sunscreen now. My mom is really, really picky. With product on her skin and she loves their sunscreen. You can shop with me at beauty counter dot com slash Melanie avalon. If you're a new customer, use the Code Clean for all twenty to get twenty percent off site wide, and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at Melanie avalon dot com slash clean beauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. And you can join me in my facebook group clean beauty and safe skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share product reviews and their experiences and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. And lastly, if you're thinking of making clean beauty and safe skincare a part of your future, like I have, I definitely recommend becoming a band of beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon prime for clean beauty. You get timbercent back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the year long membership. It is totally completely worth it. And I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, without further ado, please enjoy this wonderful conversation with Dr Will Bolso Witz. Hi, friends, welcome back to the show. Oh my goodness, I am so incredibly excited about the conversation that I'm about to have. So here is the backstory on today's conversation. So, as you guys know, the audience for this show is often very paleo and Keto and even carnivore. And I know some of you guys are vegetarian and Vegan and higher fiber diet, but in general there's all different perspectives in the audience and the guests that I bring on this show, and I get really, really excited when I get to bring up people who are more plant based, because I think it can really help open up people's eyes and their perspectives to what Diet really does suit the individual and us as humans. So back in twenty a book came out called fiber fueled, the plant based Gut Health Program for losing weight, restoring your health and optimizing your microbiome. I remember when it came out, I started seeing it everywhere. I heard an interview with the author actually on rich role and I was just like, Oh my goodness, I've got to try to book this guy for the podcast. Even my co host Jin on the intermittent fasting podcast was obsessed with the book and we would talk about it a lot on that podcast. And so I I tried so hard to book Dr Bolsoit's We had a connection and I like almost booked him, but not quite. And then, fast forward, I started working with the company Zoe, which I know a lot of you guys are also major fans of. It's a personalized program that uses a continuous glucose monitor and also gut help tests and you eat these crazy especially formulated muffins to figure out how you tolerate carbs and fat. And in any case, I got to interview the founder, Tim Specter, which was also amazing, and then I realized that Dr B, who I had been dying to interview, was at the time on the Scientific Board at the company. So I begged Zoe to introduce me to him and the connection was made...

...and here we are, and I just learned that congrats are in order for two reasons, Dr B. One, your new baby congratulations and number two, also congratulations that you are now the US medical director at Zoe. So that's very, very exciting. But yes, just welcome to the show. I I'm just so excited to dive into everything for today. I mean I'm super excited to be here and a motel of taken aback. I feel like I sound elusive in this introduction and it's funny because I'm like, Melanie, just shoot me a message. We'll do a podcast anytime you want. I'll be back in two weeks. If you guys want me to, we can do this. Oh my goodness, I know, I love that. No, I will say it's funny because I was trying so hard, but then when we actually did connect, you've been so personable, like with the emails and everything, and I've I've just been so, so excited. Oh and also, congrats, or in order, because you have a cookbook version of the book coming out pretty soon. Right. Actually, it's a cookbook, but it's also kind of not a cookbook. It's an interesting thing, like we had to call it something and cookbooks seemed like the appropriate word because it's over a hundred recipes and it's full color, like beautiful photography. So you feel like you're getting your cookbook for the fiber field life style. But I'm a medical doctor and doing a cookbook is like a very weird thing for me. So I felt compelled to use it as an opportunity to try to create a tool for health, and so I see this cookbook as more of like a toolkit for people who want a healthy gut. It has the recipes that you need. I teach you how to ferment food, I teach you how to bake sour dough, I teach you how to sprout, and for people who have food intolerances, which I know there's many of you out there, I teach you how to overcome food intolerances. And there's even two recipe based food protocols, one more fod map, one more histamine, so that I can actually put it into motion for you. It's not just like hey, try this, it's instead like let me winterally hold your hand and give you the recipes that you need to pull this off. Oh my goodness, this is absolutely incredible. Now I'm thinking we are going to have to have you back right away and focus on the lifestyle plan of all of that. That's absolutely incredible. While congrats in advance. So to start, everything off, and I'm stopping myself from diving into some of the things that you already touched on, like food sensitivities and Histamine and because I actually personally follow a low fod map diet. So we're gonna have to talk about that one. But so, to start things off, for listeners who are not familiar with your work, could you tell them a little bit about your own personal story? What brought you to become so interested in the role of Diet and health and, in particular, the Gut microbiome? Well, this was so this was not my plan. It's very bizarre for me to be like having the life that I do right now, because my dream was always just to be a medical doctor and take care of patients. But at the core the motivation was, let me try to help people, like that's what it always was. And I went through sixteen years of a very rigorous training program like six days a week, you know, fifteen to eighteen hours a day, sometimes thirty hours straight without even eating, and in that process things happened for me that in the moment I thought I was being cursed, but now, looking back ten years later, I actually believe that I was being blessed, I because of how crazy things were in my life and how hard I was working. Like I was at northwestern in Chicago and I literally got a master's degree in clinical investigation at night, and then I was at the University of North Carolina on a grant from the UNI age, doing my guestro neurology fellowship. And during this time, like I don't have time to barely do my laundry. So convenience becomes the top priority when it comes to my food. It just needs to be simple and quick and convenient. And you know what I deserve that it tastes good. And so there was a lot of of frankly unhealthy food, like when you prioritize convenience, you end up eating a lot of junk food and a lot of fast food and it tastes great and it's inexpensive and then you pay the price. And that's what happened to me. I felt like I was in my early thirties about ten years ago, and I woke up and I like, look at this man in the Mirror, who is that guy? And it was bizarre because I think of myself as an athlete. I played three sports in high school, but like this man has a gut sagging over the belt and there are blood pressure pills sitting on the sink and my self esteem is exceedingly low, despite the fact that wonderful things were happening in my professional life that were like way beyond my expectations. I didn't feel good about myself and I had a lot of anxiety and, frankly, I just wanted to curl up in a ball in a dark room under a blanket, like that's where I was at, and I knew that something needed to change, and I'm a very sort of goal oriented person, so I started trying to exercise my way out of it and it didn't work.

I could grow stronger or run faster and farther, but I could not lose the gut. And then one day I was on a date with a person who is now my wife and we have three children together. Could have never known that in that moment where this was going to go. We were just on a first date. I look across and she ordered the most bizarre plate of food I've ever seen in my life. She I mean, I would have literally never been around anyone like this, and she like basically said to the waiter. Look, I know it's not on the menu, but could you get me some collared Greens and some black eyed peas? You know, in case it's not obvious, we were in North Carolina. Could you get me some collared Greens and some black eyed peas and some mashed potatoes and just put it on a plate and make it look nice? It's like, uh, interesting. But what I noticed is that she cleaned her plate, she everything that she had. She was very satisfied, she raved about how good it tasted. She looked absolutely amazing. Her health was completely in alignment. It seemed kind of efforts for her and the meal was done and I was hungover, not from alcohol, and she was ready to go into round two of the date and I'm like, Yo, I need to go home and put on some sweats, like I need to figure out how I'm going to bail it from this date and go, go rest. So, anyway, this basically motivated me, Melanie, to take a look in the mirror at my own diet and the food that I loved and the food that, frankly, was celebrated in my family growing up, and I started to make small changes, nothing radical, just like quite simply, you know, instead of going out for fast food, I need convenience. I'm a single guy, I'm busy and I'm not a gourmet chef. What can I do? Okay, I can use a blender, so I would just like take out the blender, throw in a banana and some Greens and some berries and maybe some wool nuts, hit the buzz, drink that and like instantly I was energized and that brought me back to do it again the next night. And during this process of repeating this habit or this behavior, I like my skin started to clear up, my hair grew thicker, my self esteem started the surge, my anxiety seemed to kind of fade and next thing you know, like months are passing and my clothes are fitting me differently. And so this was a radical transformation for me and it was really empowering because I'm a doctor and being on that side of things really made me much more empathetic for my patients, but also it motivated me to want to do better for them. Why wasn't I taught this at Georgetown in northwestern and the University of North Carolina? I didn't understand that. Basically, I started to like study nutritional research at night and then I would bring it into my clinic the next day. And in my work as a gastromologist I was treating people who have like your rulebow syndrome or all sort of clitis or Crohn's disease, acid reflux, and these people are having radical transformations. And so to kind of accelerate up to where we are today, like this is all happening, and I had this very sincere, motivating feeling like it is not enough for me to be in this clinic one on one with a couple of hundred people. The world needs to hear this, and so I started my instagram count in and then in I had a podcast go viral and that led me to say, Gosh, I gotta do something even bigger. So I decided I wanted to write a book and I wrote Fiber Fields, my book. That came out in basically at five in the morning. I was working full time as a guest moroologist and taking call every third night. I wrote that book at five in the morning at starbucks here in Charleston, South Carolina, and it came out New York Times bestseller. It has now sold two hundred thousand copies. And now I'm here with my second book, which I'm getting very similar vibes, where it's like I feel like I have this exciting life changing secret that I'm holding that people will finally get to experience on the day that my book launches, which is may seventeen. I love that so much. And just speaking to your book, so I normally always have pretty long prep documents, but oh my goodness the amount of notes I have from reading your book. It was incredible. And the problem and the blessing of this topic is you reference so many studies and then I would just get in the rabbit holes of because once you go look at one study, then it references all these other studies and there's just the scientific like information that's being collected on the Gut microbiome is just so, so fascinating. I'm really excited to dive deep into all of it. Question about your role as a gas or enterologists two part question. One, were you already on that track prior to your Diet Epiphany, or did you switch to a gastro after your change in your diet? No, I was. I made the decision. So I when I when I decided to go to medical schoo. I started medical school in two thousand two. I thought...

I was going to be a pediatrician and then it was probably fall of twenty. Fall of two thousand four was when I discovered gastronurology and I fell in love with the digestive system, which sounds very weird. Oh, not at all. It doesn't sound weird to me. If you follow me online, you know I love poop jokes, so you can see where this was coming from. So yeah, so I fell in love with it and I made the decision then in two thousand four that this is what I wanted to do and this transformation that I'm describing to you really is taking place. Two thousand thirteen, in the two thousand fourteen, like that's when that was all happening. So it's like ten years later that all these things started to fall into place for me. So my second question, knowing all of that, is conventional Gastro entrology, your perception and your paradigm with the role of, you know, the gut microbiome in our diet and its influenced on everything, because I imagine you talk to your patients a lot about the role of Diet and all of that, but how does it actually affect conventional gastrentrology practices that you do? So colonoscopies and procedures and things like that? Do you still engage in all of the conventional stuff? Is there even that difference between conventional and a holistic approach? I'm just wondering how it really informs your practice. Well, I don't personally see like. I see the labels and I understand the labels that exist, but I personally don't feel boundaries in terms of the way that I practice medicine. I think I feel like, at the end of the day, my my job and my motivating factor is that my patients deserve the best, and so it is my responsibility to ensure that I'm adequately informed to provide that to them. And really the game changing moment was the fact that my life was changed by changing my diet. So from that point forward there was no denying that in my mind, this needs to be a part of what I do in the care of my patients and I started to grow my understanding of the top not just diet, but also the Diet and the microbiome interaction, because I'm a gastronurologist, so it makes too much sense. But the problem is that, like Melanie, like people are not trained in nutrition. In callipathic medicine, my training and nutrition. I've been given some of these sort of time frames to people. I did two weeks of nutrition in two thousand three that's what I was taking. So for me this was motivated by a desire, an intrinsic desire, to try to understand and try to help my patients. But the problem is you have to understand the health care system does not support this, and I'm not saying that like in a sort of conspiracy way where the health care system is trying to stop this. I'm saying the health care system does not support this because they don't teach doctors, they don't allow doctors the time and they don't pay doctors for this. And you really can't expect this to happen if you're not going to teach them or give them the time or pay them to talk about nutrition. It's just not going to happen. Gotcha. And then, I imagine, speaking to that is there is the whole branch of doctors that kind of exists outside of the insurance system and take on a more holistic approach, but when it comes to actual I mean, I don't know, I'm speaking out of my my wheelhouse here, but it seems like when it comes to actual like medical procedures and stuff, that that kind of has to be through the system, or does it? Well, in order to do colonoscopy, you have to have a medical license and you have to have the proper credentialing to do that. So like, for example, I'm allowed to do that because I did training where I did thousands of colonoscopies, you know, prior to the day that I was cut free to to do that independently. So can a person focus on digestive health and not provide colonoscopies? Of course, is healthcare more than telepathic medicine? A hundred percent. I'm of the belief that, like people ask me all the time, how do I find a provider that is going to give me what I need? How do I find someone like you, Dr b they you know, that's that's nice. I appreciate that, but actually the answer to the question is you don't on one you build a team. I love that. And then on the flip side, the irony of the further confusion is there is a slew of pupil like my audience, who do dive deep into the research and we do really understand the importance of Diet and how it affects our health and the importance of the Gut microbiome. But then there's all of these perspectives about the right diet to follow and, like I mentioned earlier, you know, Keto and carnivore versus plant based and vegetarian and veganism. So here's where I'm really excited to dive deep into everything. So maybe a foundational question that we can start with, because we could start with diet or we could start with, you know, the microbiome. But one of the things I loved in your book is when you answer the question what is the microbiome? I think a lot of people think microbiome and they think bacteria and then they're like they're done, but you talk about there's actually five parts to our microbiome. So I was wondering if you could just briefly educate us on what is the microbiome? Cool, yeah, definitely. So...

...the microbiome. This is this is the new frontier of the twenty one century, and I don't just mean in terms of science. I mean like in general, there's certain things that are major breakthroughs for humanity during each person's lifetime, and this is what's happening right now. That is revolutionizing the way that we think about human biology, and that's because we've discovered, and this discovery is very recent, like literally in the last fifteen, sixteen, seventeen years, we have discovered and started to really understand this community of microorganisms that's a part of who we are. We as humans, are not functioning in isolation. I realized that's like kind of weird to say, but we are a superorganism that actually is reliance on smaller and visible microorganisms in order to be the best version of ourselves. We actually need them. Covering us, from the top of our head to the tip of our toes, are invisible microbes and you can't see them, but if you had a microscope and you took a look, you would see that your body is teeming with life everywhere, on your skin, in your mouth and your nose, and the area where it's most concentrated is in your colon, which is the large intestine. In that place you will find thirty eight trillion microbes, which is a pretty overwhelming number. So trying to put this in the perspective, what is thirty eight trillion? Okay, so if we take all of the stars in our galaxy, that's about a hundred billion stars. We would have to condense them down in place three eight galaxies full of stars into your colon to equal the number of microbes that are living inside of all of us, all of us, not just me, all of us. And so they are there with a purpose. They're not just like hanging out. They have been a part of human evolution since day one. I don't believe there's been a second in the history of humanity that has not included and involved our little microbial friends. We Co evolved together, we rose and we fell together and through galvanizing that relationship over millions of years, we really really grew to trust them. I mean I'm just saying from a doctor's perspective. If you look at the way that we work as humans, Wow, we are really trusting these microbes because we need them for digestion, and that is access to nutrients. That's life like. We can't live without that. We need them for our metabolism, for our immune system, for our hormones, for our mood, for our brain health. Basically, everything that matters for human health in some way is interconnected. This is not the only thing that matters, but this is a big part of what matters for all of these elements of human health. And the crazy part about it is like, Yo, they're not even human, they're not even a part of our body, but we need them so desperately and we need to nurture this relationship, and that's kind of a big part of my messages. Let's not ignore our microbiome. The science is exploding, it's emerging, it's exciting, and what it's telling us is let's stop ignoring them and neglecting them and let's start leaning into them and nurturing this relationship, just like you would nurture a relationship with someone else that you love. I feel like there was this idea that they outnumbered our own cells a certain ratio, but then we realized more recently that it's not that high of a number. Okay, yeah, so this is thank you. This is actually like unpacking this. The old idea was that we are microbial and ten percent human. That was the old idea. There was a revision, and the revision, which I can think came around said that we are less than fifty percent human, for sure, that we have thirty eight trillion microbes and we have about thirty trillion human cells. But the issue, though, is if you look at the thirty trillion human cells, the vast, vast, vast majority of them are things like platelets and red blood cells, which are not like the classic cells that we would usually think of. Like you know, to me a cell means a nucleus and end of plasma, curticulum and Mitochondria and all that. If you look at just those cells, the the eukaryotic cells, the classic cells, then we we actually are microbial and ten percent human. I was going to ask you about it and I was like, Oh, I should have looked this up to have the right staff, but I'm glad you're very familiar with what happened there. Okay. And then to the actual breakdown...

...of these organisms. So maybe we can go through what they are and then I have a huge question. I'll go and just ask it, which is, are any of them good and or bad? Does that even mean anything? Are they neutral? What is the breakdown and are they good or bad? And can we maybe even define what good or bad would even mean? Yeah, I mean let's let's kind of describe what we understand about these microbes. So it's important to understand that. Like where we were fifteen years ago was, oh, look at this one microbe, look at what this one microbe does. But we are way more complicated than that. We are hundreds of species of different microbes and they're working as teams, like there's basically like groups of them that are collectively working on tasks in unison together. First one does this, then a different one does that, then a third one does this. It's amazing. We are made up of five main types of microbes. You mentioned this earlier, Melanie. So just to unpack this, the main one are the bacteria, and it's time for us to revise our understanding of bacteria. We have been vilifying bacteria for a hundred years. Yes, there are some bacteria that are bad, the vast majority of them are really good. The number two things are the fung guy or the yeasts. So like, this includes Candida, but this includes many other different types of yeasts. They're far less represented than the bacteria are. The third are the ARCHAEA. These are my personal favorite, obsessed. Yeah, they're not bacteria and they're not yeasts, but they are the most primitive micro organism are, frankly, life on the entire planet. Like we literally believe that this is the first life on the planet. Where the ARCHAEA there? There was a place in Greenland where they did an archaeologic dig and they like sort of carbon dated the ARCHAEA to four billion years ago, which is fascinating because oxygen has only existed for two point five billion years and humans have only been around for three million years, which is almost nothing. So these are key. They are hardy, they are resilient and I'm pretty sure no matter what happens with global warming or this or this planet, they're going to be fine. They live in the bottom of the ocean in a rift vent, they live inside of volcanoes and then their third option is to live inside your colon. You can decide which of those three you would personally choose as your home. I would probably go inside someone's colon, but so yeah, so the ARCHAEA are the third type. We may have parasites. Parasites is sort of a derogatory word, but much like bacteria, we need to be careful there. There's actually some that are really good. So some of our research with Zoe has found that there's one called blast asistus that actually is really good for your metabolism, helps you. And then finally, the fifth are the viruses. So, like virus is again another loaded word these days for obvious reasons, but virus is actually a normal part of the balance that exists within our microbiome and we we actually believe that we have more viruses than we even have microbes, which is kind of crazy. Okay, so the reason I personally was obsessed with Archaia was I got diagnosed in the past with small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, cebow IBS C constipation. I did a lot of research and it would come up that Ar Chia were responsible for methane production and that that was I needed to combat the ARCHAEA in order to solve my ibs issues. So it's definitely really interesting reading your book and hearing a pretty different perspective on all of that. I have so many questions about this. Yes, please do. Okay, yeah, just real quick, because I think I do want to. I do want to comment on that. It's coming conventional education to say that the ARCHAEA must be bad because they produced gas and any person who's constipated. I'm just going to tell you the number one symptom of constipation is bloating and gas like without a doubt, and there's something that I would describe as a vicious cycle that people need to understand when it comes to constipation. You know, first of all, constallation is epidemic. So I'm quite positive that some of your listeners right now we're going to be parking up because they're like, Oh gosh, this is me or this is someone I know. There's a vicious cycle and constipation, methane gas actually produces constipation. When you have more gas, you actually slow bow motility, but when you are constipated you produce more methane gas, and so it creates this vicious cycle where gas produces constipation produces gas, and round and round we go into a hey, I'm never pooping now. The ARCHAEA may be producing the gas, but I would encourage us to think differently than the traditional approach, which is always if it does something that we don't like, we have to kill it. Right. That's what we've always done, but that doesn't always work out very well for us. Sometimes we're better off nurturing the good guys were looking at other avenues to overcome what we see as a problem, as opposed to just trying to destroy it. And the reason why is because our Chia are actually known to protect us from heart disease, which is our number one killer. So we don't necessarily...

...want to kill our Keya. Nor have I seen clear evidence that by killing our Chia we can actually fix constipation. I haven't seen that evidence if you were in my clinic. The way that I approach this is to first focus on getting you pooping. If I can get you pooping and get you into a rhythm, once we get that rhythm going, when you are pooping, the gas and bloating goes away period and then we don't have to worry about killing the ARCHAEA. They can continue to pro protect us from heart disease. Two big questions right there. I'm just loving this conversation. One, getting the patient's pooping. Like you say, does it need to be a completely natural paristalsis, like you wake up and you use the restroom, or can it be like somebody taking a lot of magnesium and keeping things flowing through a route like that? Well, so there's multiple different approaches to how to treat constipation. It's a bit of a nuanced topic. I've actually I have a course that I offer on my website where literally teach for two hours on this topic. Yeah, so the but the answer is this, that the key, from my perspective, is to get people into a rhythm and get them pooping. To use magnesium to accomplish that is not something we should feel bad about in any way at all, because the reality is that if you look, I don't care what diet you eat, there are a bazillion of us that are deficient in magnesium right now. People who have very healthy diets many times are still deficient in magnesium. And so if you take a magnesium supplement, the magnesium supplement can help to facilitate good regularity of your bowel movements. It does not work through stimulating the colon, which is an important point, because stimulating the coin. The problem when you stimulate the coin is that when you take away the stimulation, the coin becomes sluggish and your constipation gets worse. And that's what we see with things like Senna or smooth move t or aloe. Don't don't hate me, Pe oh, sorry, but l O or, there's something that's used in the Latin world, Cascara. So these are stimulant laxatives and the problem is that they make you poop. They work many people who are constipated. They're like this, I need this, this is the only way I can go, but the problem is then they become dependent on it where they try to withdraw it and it's problematic. The good thing about magnesium is it doesn't do that. There are a couple of quick tips. There are many forms of magnesium. Not all of them work for pooping. The ones that I like are magnesium oxide, magnesium citrate or magnesium sulfate. You work with your healthcare provider. You check your magnesium upfront just to make sure that it's where you want it to be and that it's not high. It's extremely unlikely to be high. Then you start taking about five milligrams before bedtime. You give it at least a couple of days to see how that's working for you and then, if you need to, you can crank it up by two milligrams at a time up to a thousand or twelve fifty. The point being, once you get on a good, stable dose, you then repeat your magnesium level with your healthcare provider just to verify that it's where you want it to be. And most of the time what I find is people start low and they end up right where you want them to be by the time they get on the right does. Friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get off a product that has truly changed my life. Do you experience stress or anxiety or chronic pain? Do you have trouble sleeping at least once a week? If you do, trust me, you are not alone. I personally have explored so many avenues for how to have a healthy relationship with stress, and finding the world of Cebedy oil has been absolutely incredible for that. After doing more and more research, I realized just how incredible the health benefits of SBD are. 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I'm actually because I just recently wants to supplement line and my next supplement is magnesium, because I just think it's so, so important and it's a game changer for me personally for bowel regularity and what's so just get on my soapbox a little bit. I sort of recently had a colonoscopy because I tend to get anemic, and so it was for that that Gastro was asking me what do I do to manage my bowel movements and constipation, and I told her that I use magnesium and that it works really well, and she was insistent that I need to switch to is it what is it propelling? Glycolaxah, yeah, and I was like but the magnesium is working, and she's like no, there aren't studies on that, like you should switch to the merry lax, and I was like why? But that doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah, well, that's not true. There there are studies. There are studies that have crewely demonstrated that that magnesium can help people to have good, regular bowel movements. This is not a silver bullet. There are some people that is not going to work for. There are some people that potentially need medication. You know, one of the things that I should introduce, Melanie. I hope you don't mind, but I think this could be a game changer for some people who do have constipation, is that people need to understand that not all constipation needs to be treated with medication. All right, there are different forms of constipations. Sometimes it's slow transit, meaning that your colon is not moving as efficiently as it should. Magnesium is great for that, other medications good for that. But many times, particularly in women, constipation can be related to the pelvic floor, and basically what this is. We call it pelvic DISINERSIA Discenersia, meaning like loss of synchrony. Like we take for granted that when we sit down on the toilet we're going to have a good, complete, relaxed evacuation. That's not the experience for everyone. Many people strain to try to get it out. Many people push super hard to get a little nugget to slide out, and also many people feel like they haven't had a satisfying bowel movement, like they go but they didn't really go, they didn't really empty. It's just like I feel like I still have to go, or maybe they go again in thirty minutes. All of these people it's possible that it's a pelvic four issue and the treatment for the pelvic floor, by the way, all the everything that we're talking about. I cover constipation actually quite heavily in my new book, the Fiber Fields Cookbook, much more than I did in my first book fiber field, because the fiber fields cookbook is is much more solutions oriented than fiberfield was, and in the book I describe what I what I would say are the three, the big three, of food sensitivity. One of them is constipation. So, anyway, the approach to pelvic dys inertia is number one. You want to get tested to demonstrate that you have it, and it's a test called indirectal monometry. Once you do that test, if you have this, the treatment is not medication. It is physical therapy because it's the muscles that are out of alignment and much like if my shoulder is not working properly, the treatment for my shoulder is not Ibuprofen. That doesn't make my shoulder work properly, that just covers up the pain. The treatment for my shoulder is physical therapy. I work to get the muscles back in alignment and work in the way I want. The same is true for our public floor. Sometimes that is a game changer. I had not come across that in my many rabbit whole tangent moments researching constipation. Well, people need to hear. Here's here's the reason why I think people need to hear about this because this is completely real. It was not acknowledged or recognized up until probably about ten or fourteen years ago. So it's fairly new, meaning that there are some doctors that this wasn't part of their training. And the people who have this, in my experience, are the people who have been like banging their head against the wall with medication and not getting better. And they're frustrated because they're like, I'm taking ridiculous doses of Lenzasns, this is one of the powerful medications people take. They're like, I'm taking the highest dose of lensas Plus Mirror Lax plus magnesium and I still can't poop. Okay, that's not a medication issue. That's probably a public floor issue, because medications don't work to fix the...

...muscles of the pelvic floor. That's why you're failing. So when people are struggling with constipation and medications are quite simply not working, I'm telling you right now, write this down, talk to your doctor. Is it my pelvic floor? That's what you need to do. So when I did get the colonoscopy, she said I had a twisty colon. Could that be involved in constipation? Is that common it's an interesting question. It's an interesting question because we don't really know. We all have twisty Colon's. I can tell you for a fact, having done like I don't know how many thousand, probably more than ten thousand, colonoscopes, I can tell you that there are some people that is more difficult to perform their colonoscopy than others. In that setting, it's a chicken or egg thing. You know that they're constipated, you know that their colonoscopy is difficult, and the question is, like, is the difficulty of the colonoscopy related to the constipation or not? You know what I mean? Like it's I guess it's not so much a chicken or egg thing. It's more like we know this is true. We know this is true, but are they related? That's the question. Then another thing I was thinking about. You touch on the book and this actually ties into the psychological aspect of things, but I remember when I first came across the term visceral hypersensitivity. Is that the term about basically people with IBS being more sensitive to gas and bloating, and I remember the first time I read that it actually made me upset because I was like what they're saying. I'm just more sensitive and it's not actually as bad as I think it is. But then on the flip side, on the flip side, I've had a concern around not wanting to be constipated and I remember one time I I felt like I didn't feel constipated, I felt like really good, and then I went and got an x ray and the x Ray said I was constipated, and so then that did a psychological number on me, because then I was like, oh, so even if I don't feel anything, I probably am still constipated. So I guess the question from all of this is what is the role of our perception of how we feel when it comes to these IBS issues and constipation and stuff? Well, so these can be complicated issues, and let me start by saying this. Treat the person, don't treat the laboratory values or the X ray. So a person who's constipated almost always has gas and bloating. If, Melanie, hypothetically, you are my patient and I treat you to the point that you feel like you are having good, complete, regular evacuations, not just good, great and very satisfying, dare I say that? Right and in addition this gas and bloating, which has been a chronic problem for you for years, to the point that you you know, know what Archia are, that this goes away, like it's gone. We want, the war is over, like we won right, I don't care what the x Ray says. Now flip side. You are pooping way better than before, but you still feel like there's some in complete bowl movements. It's not fully satisfying. There's still a little bit of a struggle there and you're still having a little bit of bloating and the question is like are you constipated? Well, in that case the X ray is helpful because if the X ray does show a lot of constipation, then it helps us to understand. We don't need to go searching for other explanations for your bloating. We can focus on just making you poop a little bit better and that should take us where we want to go. Okay, I'm glad you brought that up about treating the person not necessarily the the x ray or things like that. So a big question I have about that is you talk a lot in the book about like low fob map diets and gluten free diets and people who go onto these diets and the potential issues with long term elimination diets and how it might affect the Gup microbiome and whether or not there may be nutritional deficiencies. So what is the role of treating the person versus treating the thought of how it's affecting the gut microbiome, and so to further elaborate on that. For example, say a person goes on a low fob map diet, and I guess we can define what FOB maps are. It goes on a low fo map diet and experiences remission of symptoms, but we see in studies that that might have a negative effect on, quote, beneficial bacteria. I guess I wonder how much of an issue is that, and to further elaborate. So I thought this was so interesting because I was reading some of the studies that you referenced about the long term effects of gluten free and also low fob map diets. I found it so interesting because two completely different studies we're looking at low fob map diets and how they affected the Gut microbiome and both of them use the word paradox, which I thought was so interesting because it insinuates that we have an ideological perspective that we're bringing to looking at the data when we see this paradox. And so the paradoxes were in one of the studies, the people on the low bottom map diet saw a decrease in bifidobacterium, which...

...are quote, good bacteria, but their symptoms improved. And then the other study symptoms improved. They had lower abundance of actual bacteria, but they had the stable set up. When we can, we can talk about this too, stable short chained fatty acids. And the paradox was if the bacteria are down but there's no seeming effect on the short chain fatty acids. So I guess, stepping back, that was a lot of information. If people go on a certain diet that's making them feel better but we're concerned that it might be negatively reducing quote, beneficial bacteria, how much of a problem is that? It was a long question. Yeah, well, though, I mean I think that in order to proper because this is very nuanced, right, and there's complexity to this. So I'm not I don't like painting with broad strokes to the point that it's like overly simplistic, but at the same time I want people to kind of have a feel for how this works, and I think analogies can be very helpful in this type of situation. To rather than focusing on the gut microbiome, which is so complicated, let's step away from that for a moment and let's use an analogy and let's talk about like, what if you hurt your knee? Right, so you're talking about the low fod map diet and you're talking about symptoms improving, like you don't have discomfort because you go bow fod map. But then what does that mean for your Gut microbiome? So, in my knee analogy, let's pretend you hurt your knee. Your knee is kind of like your gut microbiome, and the discomfort that you were talking about with the low fod map diet, that's the discomfort that you feel when you try to walk. Right when you hurt your knee. You have the option, if you want to, to stop walking for the rest of your life and if you do that then you will not feel pain in your knee, and that's okay. Like that there's some value to that. But the problem is that your knee is not going to heal. In fact, it will probably get worse, and then the muscles above and below the knee get weaker and you are more sedentary and you suffer metabolic consequences and this all sort of snowballs slowly into something that's more dangerous. No one does that because every single one of us knows that if your knee is damaged, well, we got to restore the knee, we have to get our function back. I want to be able to play basketball again, but I can't play basketball right now. I need a physical therapist. I need to work through a training program, and that training program basically what I'm gonna do is over the course of like not one session, but multiple sessions. This is going to take some time. I'm gonna work with this professional and each time I go they're going to challenge my knee and because the challenges are like tailored to where I'm at. You know, when I'm really beat up, we're not going to do a serious challenge, we're gonna do a mild challenge, but as I grow stronger, of challenges will become progressively more intense because we custom tailor it. We're minimizing the amount of pain. We're not just like, we're not just running towards the pain. We're not putting us through something that we don't need to put ourselves through. But what we are doing is we're acknowledging yes, there may be some discomfort in this process of rehabilitating our knee, but through a series of progressive, slow challenges and then allowing your knee to adapt and grow stronger to what you just did, you can eventually challenge challenge challenge. Until now your knee is back to full strength. And now that you're back to full strength, there is no pain and you have restored functionality to your knee, you don't have those limitations. Coming back to the microbiome, when a person struggles with fought maps, fod maps are the fermentable parts of our food, it's not because they have a food allergy. It's not because they are inflammatory, there is zero evidence of that. It's because they're struggling to process and unpack that food and the reason why they're struggling with the fod map is because they have a damaged gut. If we withdraw from the fod maps, the problem is that fod maps are actually prebiotic they're actually good for our gut microbiome. Withdrawing permanently from those fod maps will make our gut weaker. That's what we see in the studies that you are describing. But the problem is like, how do we then overcome this? Well, the solution is we heal the gut, because when you heal the gut and you go through a series of steps, much like retraining the knee, starting low and going slow in challenging your gut, your gut will rise to those challenges, much like your need did, and over the course of time, with those challenges that get progressively bigger and bigger, you are allowed to retrain your gut so that you are restoring functionality, so they that your gut becomes capable of processing and digesting those foods that you thought were your enemy and you've now turned them into your friend. It's a nuanced topic. It's not that easy. It's not like, Oh, just get rid of..., and it's also not like, oh, just eat it instead. What it is is we need to work through a process where you rehabilitate your gut, because the gut is the problem, not the food. But if we really truly want to get you back to where you need to be, then that means getting you to a place where your gut is healed and now you can consume that food without restriction, and that's possible. That's what my new book is about. So some questions about that. So when we say damaged gut, how would we define that? Is it disbiosis? Of microbiome is at the intestinal wall? What is damaged exactly? Well, so damaged. I think the term dispiosis is appropriate. The role of these gut microbes is to help us to process and unpack our food like that's what they're there for and the issue is that when they are impaired, if they don't have the proper microbes available, if they don't have the functional capacity that we need, they can be overwhelmed the foods that you need them the most, like, for example, legumes or whole rains. These are very high fiber foods. We need our microbes more to unpack fiber, and so when we go hard on my gumes or whole grains, we feel that discomfort. Again. That is not inflammation, there's no evidence of that. That is sloppy digestion and it's evidence that your gut microbiome is struggling with that food underlining. If we were to look under the hood, that's a damaged gut. That's disbiosis, or people may refer to it as we gut. That's disbiosis. How do I know that a person is disbiosis? Not a stool test, at least for me. That's not what I do. What I do is I asked them like, how do you feel? And if they tell me that they have a chronic issue with a specific food, a food intolerance, the presence of a food intolerance by itself is is indicative of a damaged gut. That's the reason why you're struggling with that food. I'm glad you said that because I was actually going to ask you about that concept, that a food intolerance is indicative of a damaged gut. So I don't know if we's use what perfect but perfect person in theory, would be able to digest anything because they have the strains ready and waiting to digest anything. Or they'll always be some sort of transition period to adapting and learning to digest something new. I would say so. First of all, I get I apologize for this, Melanie. It's not your fault, but I get a bit triggered by the word perfect. You didn't see me, but I was doing air quotes with my fingers. I was like perfect, yeah, because I'm so resting to use this word. I understand that you were. You were being very cautious with it too, like I'm very relictant to use this word because perfect, I feel like, is a figment of the human imagination that doesn't actually exist, like instagram and social media would, would present itself as if perfect exists, and it does not. So we're all just doing our best. Our Gut is imperfect. Our Gut for every single one of us, no matter who you are, has strengths and it has weaknesses. If we were all bodybuilders, we would have strengths and we would have weaknesses. But if we wanted to do a different sport, take, I don't know, a professional body builder and then make them into someone who does yoga, their body is not adapted to that. Professional bodybuilders are not yoga people. They're not designed for that. Our Gut, microbiome is designed and adapted to whatever we have been eating for the last three months and any time that we change what we're eating, we are challenging it. We are asking it to adapt and evolve too, whatever it is that we want to do. If you have not been consuming legumes, I'm going to tell you right now the hardest part about reintroducing legumes is accepting that that it's going to be difficult in the beginning, and that's because you just don't have the bacteria right now in the right form to help you to unpack these foods. But if you start super low, like literally like two black beans, and you start there and then you go to four black beans and then the six black beans and you start move en up, you can build them back up. So these weaknesses that exist within our gut, they're adaptable, they can be taught and they can grow stronger, much like we have different muscle groups in our body and if I want to make my chest stronger, I do the bench press, but if I want my biceps to be stronger, I do curls. If you want to be better at consuming beans, consume some beans. If you want to be better consuming whole grains, consumes some whole grains. If you don't want to be stronger with those things, stop consuming them. You will grow weaker. It's like that's like saying I'm not going to do my biceps anymore. I'm trying to exist within this analogy. But so you'll grow weaker with that specific muscle or systemically, like your whole body, so like your overall health implications. Obviously all muscle groups are intertwined, right, like our body is intertwined. So, but no, I really more focusing on that one muscle group. So, like if you stop working out your biceps but you're still working out your tries ups, it's gonna be some weird looking harms, right,...

...because the biceps don't grow stronger when you stop using them, they grow weaker. If we stop walking, our legs grow weaker, but if we start training our legs they grow stronger. The I think the point is that, like our body, is constantly adapting and evolving based upon our diet and lifestyle, whatever sort of you take in from your environment, your body rises to the challenge. If you want to become a marathon runner, you are capable of doing that, but you're not going to start today and run twenty six miles. You're going to train your body until you get to the point that you can do that. If you want to be a body builder, you will go to the gym and you will lift heavy weight. And if you want a healthy gut, then what you will do is you will go through the process of recognizing and understanding where the weakness is in your gut exists, because it's not like just categorically weak. All of us. You have strengths and you have weaknesses. If we understand our weaknesses, like what are the foods that we stru go with, then you are an empowered person because now you can turn your attention to those specific foods and say, here's where I need to do some work. I need to focus more on legumes, or I need to focus more on whole grains, or I need to focus more on fruit, or whatever it may be, and you can build your gut up so that it's capable of becoming strong again. A question about that as well. You gave a really fascinating statistic in the book about basically the amount of enzymes we naturally have to digest carbs and fibers, like seventeen or something somewhere somewhere around that number, compared to the potential digestive enzymes. I've gut bacteria, which was a huge number so where do those bacteria exist? And what I mean by that is so, say that a person has trouble digesting legumes, do they bring in when they eat the leg gum? Are they introducing that bacteria that provides the ability to digest it, or is the bacteria all ready residing in them waiting to be like reawakened and built up? Because if it's the latter, isn't it possible that some people will just they just don't have that bacteria? So we we all have a unique microbiome with specific, unique strains of microbes, but the good news is that it's never just one bacteria. There's always these redundancies that exist within the microbiome. So certain bacteria could be replaced with a different bacteria that is capable of doing something very similar. And so you're not, we're not overly reliant on oh well, if you're missing this one bacteria, then you are simply incapable of doing this or incapable of doing that. To answer your question, I think there's an interesting study that was of the Hudsa, which are a tribe of people that exist in Tanzania in Africa, and I'm sure your listeners have heard about the HUDSA. If they're into Palo and Quito and they continue to live a hunter and gatherer lifestyle, they're they're non agrarian and they have studied the Hudsa, the micro microbiome of the Hudsa, and what's fascinating is that there are microbes that disappear when, like, a berry is out of season, and then when the Berry comes back in season, the microbes reappear. So now, basically what that says, says to me, is that again, the microbiome is adapting to the needs of this person. When they're ready to eat berries, the microbiome is there to help them eat berries. But when they're not eating berries, then you don't need those microbes and therefore those microbes will recede. My suspicion, I don't know for sure, because it's hard. It's hard, melanie, because there's limitations to our testing. So, like our testing can detect down to a certain level, but what if the microbes are below that level? And my suspicion in this Hudza example that I'm giving is that the microbes are below the detectible limit but they're still present. You know, you call them dormant if you want to. They're they're they're just not really active in a way where they could really do much to help you. But once you bring the berries back onto the menu of some boom here they come back to life, and so I think that it's likely that we have microbes that were capable of activating by reintroducing foods that we haven't been consuming. was literally just going to ask you about the hut sts. So I was going to ask you about the seasonal eating of them. Are The hut set? Do they consume grains? Are they gluten free? Gosh, that is a great question. I don't know with complete clarity, but I don't think they bake bread. So they eat a lot of tubers. They are very high fiber and they consume like, we believe, potentially a hundred grams of fiber per day and because they're eating a lot of roots and tubers. But no, I don't. I would not expect that they would have gluten in their diet because they're like they don't eat wheat. They're not growing wheat Rye Barrowy, like they don't. That's not a part of their diet. Yeah, I was just really curious because you know, we use them as an example of, I guess, the ancestral got microbiome that hasn't been tampered and messed with by, you know, the modern diet, which is full of... many issues. But it sort of ties into because you talk a lot about gluten in the book and that was a bit of a paradigm shift for me, and you talk about CELIAC disease. What are your thoughts on a gluten free diet and who shouldn't shouldn't go on one, and are their potential issues to long term gluten restriction? Okay, so I love it the question. Yeah, no, we are. We are touching on the good ones here. So let me let me unpack gluten a little bit. So, first of all, gluten is a protein. It's a protein that is found in wheat borrowing and Rye and if you have CILIAC disease and you consume gluten, it activates your immune system in an inflammatory way that is problematic. So in people with CILIAC disease, gluten is off the table. And all of these things that I'm talking about, like low and slow reintroduce. It's about variety and abundance. That does not apply to a person who has CELIAC disease. If you were in my Clin and you have CILIAC, I would say you need to be gluten free and you need to be gluten free for the rest of your life. There's no bringing it back. But let's move beyond CELIAC disease. And, by the way, I mentioned earlier that there's a big three of food sensitivity and I said that constillation was one of the three. The second is CELIAC disease, so we're touching on it right now, and the third is all bladder dysfunction, which is another thing that can cause food intolerances. And if you fix it, if you fix any of these three, people's food intolerances get way better. So now, with CELIAC disease, it becomes imperative that you rule this out, and I want people to understand that a blood test is not adequate. The vast majority of people that I have diagnosed with CELIAC disease, they have a normal blood test. I was raised, being taught, by raised, I mean in the health care system, being taught by the health care system in my medical education, that these blood tests were really reliable for CILIAC and it is not true. We miss under would what is SILIAC disease? The reliable test for CELIAC is an upper endoscopy. You have to go down into their small intestine and take biopsies and people have to be consuming gluten in order to do that properly. But let's assume that we that a person does not have CILIAC disease. Okay, so we're moving beyond that. They have heard that gluten is inflammatory and gluten is implicitly bad for the Gut microbiome. The problem is that, like if you look at research studies, not in a test tube, which is, I think of a quite unnatural way to measure what I do and how I live. So rather than looking at a test tube or a rat study, let's look at like real humans eating a slice of bread. What happens, and what we see is that when people eat high quality sources of like, for example, bread or like high quality carbohydrates that do include gluten, their microbiome becomes more health their inflammatory markers actually go down, and the reason why is because wheat actually contains a lot of probotic compounds that are good for our microbes. Flip side, like we all know, that wheat includes a very broad spectrum where it could be like high quality sour dough bread, but it could also be total junk food, and the vast majority of wheat based calories in your supermarket are junk. I am not advocating for those in any way. Those are not healthy foods, but that's not exclusively because of gluten. They just happen to contain gluten and be unhealthy foods. So they did this study, Melanie, that I think you may have been leading me into a little bit, so I'm gonna talk about it, where they looked at like people who have what's called a gluten intolerance, and what this means is that when they consume gluten they feel unwell, like they have gas or bloating or cramping or abdominal pain or something like that. First of all, they verified that these people they do not have CELIAC disease. Okay, so CELIAC diseases off the table and, as I said, if you have CILIAC you need to be gluten free. And in this group that does not have CELIAC disease, they sent them home with three weeks worth of breakfast bars and they said mark down every single morning after breakfast, how you feel, how many symptoms you're having. So the three bars where first the placebo. That's our baseline. We're gonna compared to that number two, a gluten containing bar and number three, a bar that contains what are called fruit tans. FRUIT TANS ARE FOD maps. So when they analyzed the results, it was a bit of a surprise. When people consumed the gluten containing bar compared to the placebo, they actually had less symptoms when they were consuming gluten than they did when they consumed the placebo containing bar. Placebo Bar was more of a problem than gluten. When people consume the fruit Tan containing bar, they were triggered. The fruit TANS, which coexist in wheat containing products, are the reason that people get gas, bloating discomfort when they we containing foods, and that's because they...

...are fought maps, but they're also probiotic. They should not be thrown out. We should not be vilifying them. We should be looking at ways to overcome these limitations and restore function to our gut, make it stronger so we can consume these foods, and that's kind of what you and I have been talking about from most of our conversation today. So the point is this. Here's how I see this. If you are CELIAC, you need to be gluten free. If you are not CELIAC, you don't need to be gluten free, but I do encourage you to buy organic if it's wheat, because most wheat is being sprayed with glyph sate. Unless it's organic, that actually can cause harm to your microbiome. Non Organic wheat in sprayed with glyphosate to me is problematic. I think the people need to make sure they're consuming whole grains. Of Americans are not getting the recommended amount of whole grains and when you look at the evidence and whole grains, they reduce our risk of heart disease, our number one killer, reduce our risk of cancer, our number two killer, and people live longer when they consume more whole grains. I think we should be eating them. If it's not wheat, then it needs to be something else. So you don't have to be a wheat consuming person. That's okay, but if you're going to go gluten free, you need to make sure that you make an effort to replace the wheat, our number one whole grain, with something else. Keen Wa Sorghum, tough Amarynth, brown rice. These are some examples of gluten free whole grains that you could use as a substitute. So you don't have to consume gluten, you do need to consume whole grains, but the evidence on gluten is just a little bit more nuanced than what we've all been went to. Believe, so many questions. I'm so glad that you brought up that study because I was really, really fascinated by that and so I went and looked at it and my understanding and interpretation of it was that like, because they had people, you know, consuming all the different things and seeing how they were reacting, and it was that like. Some people did react more to the gluten, but it was a much smaller percent and and some people reacted more to the placebo, some people to the Phisit Fructins, fructin's. So like my takeaway. And then I know, I think at the end they were saying that it also didn't account for the combination. So so we don't know. You know, maybe there's something to having both fructins, fructins and gluten together. That's a problem for people. The takeaway for me was that it's definitely much more nuanced and maybe people who think they reacting to gluten might actually be reacting to fructins. But then there were some people in the study who did react more to the gluten. So is it possible that it's just more nuanced and gluten is still a problem? I think it's said in a study that, like the people who were just reacting to the gluten, those are the people that we would consider to have, you know, non celiac gluten sensitivity, but that it's a much smaller number than we thought because going into it they probably thought that everybody in the study had non gluten CELIAC sensitivity. Yeah, totally, I think. I think that what this study does is it first of all introduces the idea that maybe it's not the gluten, maybe it's the fruit tans, and I think that there's value in saying that right because it feels like for the last ten years all we've been talking about is how gluten is so bad, it's it's the gluten monster, the gluten monsters out there to get us right, and it's like, whatever you do, you gotta run away from gluten because it's going to come and get you, but the evidence that gluten is actually causing harm to us is really very thin. Where is the study saying that people who consume bread have more disease? Where is this? Where is the study? It doesn't exist. And again, like, I'm not saying we should consume more white bread and more junk like ultra processed foods. No, I'm not. I'm saying that high quality sources of wheat, organic like whole wheat, organic sour dough bread, these can be a part of a healthful diet. So there is nuance to gluten. You know, in my book, as you know, Melanie, and I didn't touch on this yet, but I'm touching on it right now, there are some people who can, who consume gluten containing foods and they do have in a reaction to them, and you know that could include rash or other sort of untraditional symptoms and we're not totally sure what the story on that is yet. I still wonder, this is speculation. I still wonder if a lot of the weirdness around gluten is in fact weirdness around glife state. That's what I wonder, because it's all being sprayed and unless you get your way to buy organic. It's been sprayed. I mentioned earlier I was making magnesium as my next supplement, but my supplement partner and I we had a lengthy conversation about this the other day because his theory is it's the life of state. And I have some more questions about the gluten. But first I just want to say I think this conversation is so valuable because I know, I mean historically me, and and still I guess, and a lot of my listeners do exist within this paradigm of it. It's all the gluten. And so even if listeners, even if you don't agree completely with this new idea that we're...

...positing or presenting, I think it is really helpful just to be open to a new perspective. And so it might just be the first step in realizing, Oh, maybe it's not as black and white as as we thought. Well, we're constantly evolving right. So, like I'm I'm a big believer that my my job is not to dig a trench and defend a position. My job is to ride the horses science, and so I will, I will continue to evolve if new evidence comes out that suggests that I need to reposition myself. I will do that, and I'm not here to force a piece of bread down anyone's throat, but I do think that people living in fear of a of a healthy slice of sour dough bread, they don't need to do that and I feel like we've been fearmongering this topic a little bit too much. Flip side. If you are sitting there and you're going, look, but dr B here's like me, because there's always these people milling, you come out of the woodwork and they always have an individualized story of yeah, but when I eat, go in Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Blah Blah. And I always say, yeah, you're right, you should not consume Gluden, go gluten free. And what I'm saying to you is, if you feel compelled to be gluten free, don't feel bad, it's all good, we're friends. But what I'm what I'm what I'm what I'm proposing to you is that what I see as the two main choices here are either to include some high quality gluten containing foods or, alternatively, to go gluten free, with an emphasis on gluten, gluten free whole Greens. And you know what, honestly, Melania, if it's okay. I'd love to throw a quick comment on why that is real quick. Okay this this is not an inconsequential topic. You know, my my responsibility as a medical doctor is to try to guide people towards better health and if there's one condition that I should be guiding guiding people away from, it should be the number one cause of death in the United States and that's heart disease. More people die from heart disease every single year. Then there are people who die from covid in the worst year of the pandemic. So we need to have a consciousness about this, where we're making smart, informed choices that that we lead US further away from heart disease. And one of the studies that I talked about in the book. I don't know if you have. You've looked at several of these, Melanie, I'm very impressed. One of the studies that I talked about in the book is that they looked at people going gluten free and their risk for having coronary artery disease, and they took two populations. One is the CILIAC population. What happens when they go gluten free and their risk of cornery artery disease. The answer is their risk of heart disease decreases substantially because when they consume gluen it activates inflammation in their body, and inflammation is what ultimately leads to heart disease. So that is a great choice for them. But on the flip side, what happens to the person who does not have CILIAC disease and they go gluten free? The answer to that question is that in that study they found that people hadn't increased risk of having cornary artery disease. You're actually you're actually exposing yourself to a heightened risk. Why? Again, like this, comes back to the nuance of how I present this. The reason why is because whole grains protect us from heart disease in a very powerful way, and so my message is you either should, you need to consume whole grains, and the choices either high quality sources of gluten containing foods or, alternatively, gluten free whole grains, but I want you consuming whole grains because of this type of evidence that's suggesting to us you are increasing your risk of coronary artery disease, or number one killer, if you go gluten free and don't properly adapt your diet. That's really interesting. It's a big part of what motivates me to put this message out there. You know what I mean? Like this is not I'm not trying to pick a contrarian perspective. I understand this is contrarian to what has been very sort of common, popular diet conversation around the gluten for the last, you know, eight years or so. I understand this is a contraining I'm not trying to be contrarian. I'm using my education and my experience and I'm looking at the studies and this is what I see. And part of what I see is when the entire world is going gluten free and they don't need to, are we putting ourselves in harm's way in the long run when we do this? I just want to make sure we're making smart choices. Going back to the hudst for example, do they have high heart disease? The life expectancy of the HUDSA is not, you know, ninety. There's a lot of complicated reasons for that. They don't have access to healthcare the way that you and I do. The HUDSA also consume an extremely high fiber diet. The average woman in the United States right now gets about fifteen or sixteen grams of fiber per day. The average man gets by eighteen grams of fiber. The recommended amount for a woman in the US is the recommended amount for a man is thirty eight. And the HUDSA, most of what I've seen, they suggest that they consume about a hundred grams of fiber per day. It's not that you need whole grains necessarily. I mean I don't think that...

...they do consume a lot of whole grains because they would need to be growing the product. I don't think that's something that you forage. But it's not that you necessarily need to have whole grains. But when we look at the American society like we are not the Hudza, so trying to activate what our perception of their diet is, but then sleeping in our bed and hopping in our car to drive to work, and we're not really doing it. You know what I mean? We're not living that life. They're running around and so but they do consume a high fiber diet and we do know from my personal favorite fiber study of all time, which by the way, has been mentioned in both of my books. My Favorite Lancet? Yeah, The Lancet Andre Rentals. Thank you, I'm so I'm so impressed. This is amazing. I love all this stuff. So, okay, so the Lancet Andrew Reynolds. One of the benefits of increased dietary fiber consumption is a reduced risk of heart disease and reduced risk of death from heart disease. And so these, you know, these huds that are consuming a grams of fiber per day and they're not exposed to ultra processed foods at all. Think about that. That's a very healthy diet. It doesn't it doesn't matter to me whether what Wabele we applied to it. That's a very healthy diet. Do you know if there's been any studies comparing a whole foods plant based diet with or without grains? There was a study that was done. I mentioned it. I do get pushed back on this because you know, obviously if people, if people's dietary preference, they feel it's being disrupted, then they're going to try to push back. But there was a study in Australia where they compared sort of a standard Australian diet to a to a to a Paleo Diet. And what they did with the Palio group is they broke them into hardcore pelio versus more kind of loosely Paleo like Palio Ish, and they looked at their t m AO level. Oh God, I'm so glad we're talking about T M Ao. Okay, I'm excited. Okay. So t m a O is a compounds that is produced when the GUT microbiome is exposed to Carnentine specifically and in some cases coaling. You need the Gut microbes in order to activate it. So like if you don't have the right microbes, you can't produce T M Ao, and the microbes will produce t m a which goes to the liver and the liver activates it to t m a O. and then T M Ao has been associated in research at the Cleveland Clinic, which is our number one cardiovascar heart center in the country. It has been associated with increased risk of heart disease, increased risk of congestive heart failure, increased risk of stroke, increased risk of chronic kidney disease. Alright, so t m AO is this independent Cardiovascar risk factor that we're concerned about. And so in this Palio study out of Australia, they compared Palio to a sort of a standard healthful Australian Diet and they discovered that people who consume a Paleo Diet they have increased t m AO levels, and these t m a levels actually increased substantially. When you went from a Palio light up to a hardcore Pelio Diet, you actually increased your t m AO substantially more, which, if the Cleveland Clinic is right, that suggests that you are substantially increasing your likelihood of having coronary artery disease down the road. Now, it was not like a meat based thing because if you look at the breakdown of the study, the amount of meat that was being consumed in both groups was very similar. So instead, when the authors performed their sort of discussion and analysis, what they discovered is the reason why the Palio Group that was super hardcore had this cranked up t m AO level was because they were truly serious about restricting their whole grains and they believe they actually identified in the study the microbe that was specifically associated with whole grain assumption. That was protective. So when you consumed whole grains, you've got more of this microbe and that microbe helped to protect you against t m AO getting activated, even though you're eating red meat, and the absence of the whole grains actually was what they believed to be the bigger problem. Quick Tangent from that, I think you also referenced to study about red wine reducing T M Ao. Yeah, we think the red wine. Uh, we we celebrate that, don't we? So red wine, we believe red wine. We believe that balsamic vinegar can I believe, possibly extra virgin olive oil as well. And so when you start to hear those things, red wine, balsamic vinegar, extra virginal oil, what comes to mind? For me? It's a Mediterranean Diet, and this is probably part of why a Mediterranean Diet can be such a healthful diet. What are your thoughts on because I was researching t m Ao more and I found a really interesting study, actually sort of recent, from March. It was called Diet fecal microbiome and trimethylene and ox Ay in a cohort metabacaly healthy US adults, and it...

...was proposing that t m o could be elevated and healthy individuals, but maybe in that context it wasn't like maybe it wasn't a problem. What are your thoughts on that, that idea? Well, I think we're unpacking it. We have multiple cohort studies from different populations that have found this association. That doesn't etch it into stone. I mean, obviously we want to continue to learn more. There are studies where they inject in an animal model. They'll inject t m t m a oh into an animal and actually see increased clotting, which would suggest that this is not just like a CO associated marker but instead actually directly associated with what's going on. I think that one of the challenges, Melanie, is that there's this nuance to clinical research where you can do you know, even when it came to smoking in one cancer there were studies that suggested that smoking was protective. So I know, and that's crazy, right, because we all accept that smoking causes lung cancer. We all know that's true, but in that moment there were some studies that said otherwise. And so where it becomes important is to not like seek out the one study that indicates that something different but instead to look at the totality of the work. This is why we can't just pull one study. We have to look at the totality of the work and try to add an interpretation to that, and that's why it's hard and complicated. You know I mean I I not only conducted clinical research myself and published papers, but I actually did night school in order to get a master's a clinical investigation, and a big part of that is, frankly, just to understand what's going on in these things. Hi, friends, one of the most valuable things that I do every single night of my life is my infrared sauna session. The brand that I use is sun light in. I did a lot of research on infrared saunas before deciding on them. Their SAUNAS are so high quality. 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I'll put a link to that in the show notes, and I also recently did an epic blog post all about the science of Sauna. Will also put that in the show notes. All right. Now back to the show. Speaking to that Um, looking at the big picture, what do you say when people argue the Grain Corey sation is pretty much correlational, like healthy user bias? Yeah, a lot of people will just say that it's a correlation thing. So no offense to anyone, but I don't see people who, like, are trained scientists saying this. What I tend to see is people who have like sort of entrenched position on a topic and that entrenched position is under attack because of a population based study and then it's like the almost knee jerk response to the population based study is, well, this is correlation, not causation, and the problem is that we have to understand that there are different rules for different types of studies. There are many types of studies and we want all of them. Like I am not here arguing that the only thing that matters is population based research, but we were just talking a moment ago about how smoking causes one cancer. Do we believe that? I hope so. That's population research. We wouldn't know that without it. There's never been a randomized controlled trial of smoking in one cancer. That doesn't exist. So how did we learn so much about covid so quickly? It was population based research. Is it perfect? Of course not. It's imperfect. We're constantly trying to do better, but we do have quite advanced methods that we use. This is not quite simply like just a correlation. These are correlations where we control for confounding factors. We're doing everything within our power to try to eliminate those types of things. It's imperfect. There are things like healthy user bias. But to discredit the entirety of population based research from my perspective, is to effectively say, well, smoking does not cause lung cancer. Right. There's never going to be randomized control trials on many of these complex topics where the medical condition takes a long time to develop, like weight and diseases that take decades to develop. You can't do randomized control trials for that. So what we need is we need a combination. Like what we should be looking for is we want to look the whole body of work that includes these sort of pre clinical studies,... it includes the animal model studies or test Tube Studies, and then it also includes randomized control trials and population research, and what is the direction that it's pointing us? And when you see consistent messaging emerging from that, that's when you know that you're really onto something very powerful. And the reality, Melanie, is that these topics, like people want them to, be black and white, but debate and discourse has always existed. It's always been there. I mean, if you went to a medical meeting fifty years ago, you would see people yelling at each other. It's just that the debate has now spilled out of the conference hall and into the public and we also have people sharing their opinion on the Internet, you know, just I guess like we all have the right to do that. So, you know, that's part of the challenge and I think that too to me, I personally find that if a person is like categorically dismissing all epidemiology and population based research, then I don't think they understand the nuance of research. Well, I will say for me personally, this was actually the second time in recent history where I definitely like saw my brain sort of changing its paradigm. Recently I interviewed Dr Neil Bernard and we talked a lot about soy, and when I dive deep into soy, I started changing my mind about what I thought about soy. And then reading your book, when I try to be as unbiased and UN Cherry picked as possible, especially if I know I have a preconceived notion about it, I go to Google scholar, I type in the topic and I try to just look at what comes up without any preconceived conception. I did that with grains and inflammation. I was like, Oh, it's actually like if you really had no preconceived notions and you just googly things and Google scholar like grains, inflammation grains, hard disease grains, whatever you would the argument that whole grains at least are supportive of health in that aspect, at least from my opinion. I get that. And let me just say, like first of all, like I welcome that. We all have differences of opinion, like there's things that I disagree with Neil Barnard about and we all are coming at this and we're all doing our best. And where I'm at is like when someone describes it the way that you just described it, like hey, I know that I have my biases and I'm trying to be open minded about this and I'm willing to evolve. I mean, I give a standing ovation to that because I think that that's so different than what the world has become in two thousand twenty two, where we just want to throw spears at each other from our like entrenched position, and it's like no, we need to have discourse and conversations and respect one another and continue to love one another and not be just shouting. But yeah, I mean I think you know, whole grains and my games. To me it's very hard to say that they're inflammatory, when the healthiest populations in the world the basis of their diet is whole grains and legumes, and we have overwhelming evidence that in both cases less less risk of heart disease, with less risk of cancer, among other conditions. I just want to say I can't agree more with what you just said about people being open minded. This is just so important to me. I I do, though. I am all of that said, I am really happy because I actually well, I don't know if I should be happy, but I've existed in the Gluten Free Paradigm for so long, personally practicing a gluten free diet, but I do have a wheat allergy, like an I ge wheat allergy, which is one of your categories. I think, yeah, it is, and that's and then those people like, if you have a wheat allergy, then you shouldn't be eating wheat. I mean that's and that's a wheat specific thing. That's not a gluten specific thing, but that's not any any food allergy. We have to be careful. Quid question about the CELIAC diagnosis, because I've also been doing gluten free for so long. How long do you have to be consuming gluten for it to show up on a biopsy. It's a little bit brutal. I Apologize. I wish it was a little bit easier than this. Just is what it is. Typically we recommend at least two weeks of at least one slice of bread per day. Okay, but if I had a wheat allergy, if you, if you had a weed Argy, then what you would probably need to do is you would have to focus on like Rye bread or barley, eating barley every day. Maybe before my my fourth colonoscopy, which will be my next one, will be my fourth. Well, I want to be super respectful of your time. I was wondering if there's one more topic I can ask you about. We've touched on it a lot. I have a nice study to open it, but we we've touched a lot on the role affirmative foods and I loved the section on fermented foods in the book. I am like you when I discovered the magic of Home Fermentation, it is just so fun, so exciting. But what are your thoughts on the recent sort of recent study that came out, I don't know, a few months ago maybe, about fermented foods versus fiber in did you see this and how it affected people? subplanatory markers? Of course these are my friends. I was...

...wondering what your thoughts are on that study and also just the role of firmented foods in general in our gut health. Yeah, so let's let's talk about fermented this is a two part study and it's something worth people checking out now. These are this is coming out of Stanford University. was published last summer a couple of my friends, Professor Christopher Gardner, as someone who's on the Zoe scientific advisory board with me, and Justin Sonnenberg. If you look at fiber fields, he supported my book. And so in the study they were looking at a dietary intervention and how it can affect your gut health over a period of ten weeks. One of the interventions was to have people increase their fermented food consumption. I'm gonna talk about the fiber more in a moment. So when people increase their fiber, their fermented food consumption, what was exciting is that after about ten weeks they actually increased the diversity within their gut microbiome and there were reduced measures of inflammation. So that's really very exciting because I, you know, fiber fueld, touting what I believed to be the benefits of consuming fermented food and it's the summer of two thousand twenty one that the study comes out that now says like this is potentially it got health game changer. In the study people were not consuming fermented food at baseline, like if they were, it was like yogurt for some people a couple of times a week. That was it. So one of the things that I think was going on here in this study is that, first of all, fermented foods can be great because they include live bacteria, live microbes are living food, but they also can include fiber and prebiotics, and many people are not consuming these foods. So the idea that I've been preaching throughout our episode today is we need abundance, we need variety. We don't want to restrict our diet, we want to expand and in this study the expansion of their diet into a food category that they were not previously consuming led two benefits to their gut microbiome in the course of just ten weeks. I think we should all being fermented foods. It was in my first book, but it's here in my second book, the Fiber Field Cookbook, that I actually I am able to give you the recipes that you need to accomplish this. So there's an entire recipe section for that, all fermented, like an example would be fermented salsa. It's gonna blow your mind fiber. So I'm going to guess that the majority of your listeners, like I, know the discourse and conversation that's occurring around this and I'm going to guess, though, that the majority of your listeners haven't heard about what happened with this part of the study. So in the study they basically told people crank up your fiber and what you did is you took a population of people that were consuming on average, about twenty grams of fiber per day and over the course of just a couple of weeks they more than doubled that up to about forty five. Up to about forty five grams of fiber per day. That's a lot and there were some people in the study, is there was a subsegment that struggled to do this and there was some increased inflammation in these people. And when you look at these people, at this subset, there is actually a consistent discovery that they're gut microbiome at baseline was not healthy. Now I am not surprised by the findings from this study. Like this is not a curveball and this is not a Catcha in any way. People who have a damaged gut microbiome are going to struggle to increase their fiber and that's something that I've been very upfront about, because when you consume fiber it is so good for your gut microbes, but for people who have a damaged gut it's putting a strain or a stress on your microbiome and it can be hard so for a person who has a damaged gut to go from twenty to fiber per day in just a couple of weeks. I would never advise that. That is not low and slow. That is aggressive and over the top and I'm not surprised that they struggled in this particular study. It's not proof that fiber does not work and I think it's very worthwhile people who claimed that that the study indicates that fiber does not work, they should go look at the recommendations that are coming directly from the authors of the study. Go check out what Professor Christopher Gardner or Justin Sonnenberg recommend. They both have been on plenty of podcasts and what you're going to hear them continue to recommend is a high fiber diet. What was the equivalent? So the amount of fermented foods that people have to eat for those benefits? Is it a small amount? Well, so, a serving. It's key to one of the keys is to understand that a serving of fermented foods is very small. So you don't need to be eating a bowl of Sauerkraut to have one serving. Like literally, you know, a tablespoon or two of Sauer Kraut would count, or four ounces of Kombucha. And so in the study people went from like less than half of a serving of fermented food to per day up to, I believe it was like five or six servings per day. It's a bit aggressive, I mean it's not. It's not necessarily easy to do that unless you're really being focused on it. But I think what you look to do is you've look to incorporate fermented food into meals wherever possible.

I think fermented foods make a great garnish. So like you can work them into a lot of different things when they're not the centerpiece of the dish. There's something that's on the side and you're enjoying as a compliment to the dish. I love that you pointed out that there's never been a case of food poisoning linked to fermented foods. I thought that was really interesting because there's definitely a fear, I think, that especially if you're home fermenting, that there might be some sort of issue. It sounds like they're relatively safe. I think so. I think the relatively safe I mean we always want to place play it safe, right, but you can have food poisoning from like, you know, getting a Jimmy John Sub Right. So it's there's no way to make yourself completely separated from risk in your life. You drop hop in your car every day and the majority of accidents that occur occur within a couple of miles of your house. And so the I think the thing with fermented foods, and this is also true of sprouting, is you want to take the appropriate and necessary safety precautions and when it comes to fermented foods, if you're not really sure or not really comfortable with it, just buy it at the bite at the store, like buy your Kambuch at the store, you can buy Sauer Kraud or Kimchi temp a mis. When it comes to like Sauer Kraud, don't buy it in a can. If it's in a can not fermented. It needs to come in a jar and it needs to say live active cultures, and then you know you're on something. Speaking of the live active cultures, if it's dead, does it still have effects, because I know there's really fascinating studies on dead probiotics still having beneficial effects. Yeah, so we we suspect that there's still it's not the life of the bacteria that matter exclusively. Part of it is that the bacteria can have by products. There are the probotics, which are the bacteria, there are the probotics, which are things like fiber or polyphenols, and then there are the post biotics, which are the things that the bacteria produce and things like butterate, Acetate, proprionate, the short chain fatty acids that I like celebrate and love. Those are produced by microbes deep inside our colon. But like when you make fermented food, there's an ecosystem of microbes within that fermentation that are basically working on what is there, you know, whether it be cabbage or whatever it may be, and they're transforming the food and they're creating new products, including like they make new forms of fiber called exopolysaccharides, and so, you know, to me, like when I hear the word fermentation, the first word that comes to mind is transformation, like you are transforming your food. It can even make Melatonin. Yeah, I mean it's it's the world's and like the microbes, but also just food in general, is just it's mind blowing. I mean, I also in the cookbook I talk a lot about sprouting and like sprouting could be medicinal people who have histamine intolerance, which you and I didn't really talk about in great detail today, but it's a form of food intolerance that's more common than people realize, and one of the ways that you can combat histamine intolerance is by quite simply eating sprouted peas, because sprouted peas actually have the enzyme that our body needs. They have doubt in them. Yeah, D A O, diamine oxidase, like so, yeah, and another cool thing, melanie, like again, like nature, nature, Yo, nature, you are crazy, you are amazing. When you sprout these peas if you do it in the dark. The darkness actually sort of puts a stress on these peas and that stress brings out the best in them and you get higher levels of this Enzyme d a O. So, like sprouting your peas in the dark is the way to do it. If you have histamine intolerance. Hi, friends, so what I'm about to say may include some disturbing content, so if young ones are listening, you may want to skip ahead. On Valentine's Day, I experienced sexual battery by a man at a massage parlor. I felt so helpless and so scared while it was happening and afterwards I was really, really scared to tell anybody. I'm so glad that my friends encouraged me to tell the police and I'm so glad that the police believed me and that the man is now in jail. And ever since sharing my story, you guys have been so supportive. So many people have applauded me for telling the police, saying that something like that had happened to them too, and they never told anybody. I started looking into the statistics and they are pretty shocking. So sexual assaults are most likely the most prevalent crime in the US and they are also the most underreported. Every sixty eight seconds, an American is sexually assaulted, so I was one of those. Every nine minutes that victim is a child. Meanwhile, only twenty five out of every one thousand perpetrators will end up in prison, and only five percent of sexual assault reports filed have ever been proven false. Of all juvenile sexual assault victim are female. Adult rape victims are female and in...

...two thousand nineteen over six hundred and fifty two, six hundred and seventy six women were raped and nearly one million women were victims of sexual assault. I believe this is a huge, huge problem happening in our society. It's one of the crimes where there's not usually evidence. It's not like a physical object was stolen or somebody outwardly injured or killed. It's basically your word against the perpetrator, and so it can be really, really scary to tell somebody and stand up for yourself, but I want to encourage you that we can change this. We can speak up. So if something happens to you, I encourage you. Please, please, tell somebody. I promise you you're not crazy. The thing that really convinced me to go to the police was it wasn't so much about me, but about stopping this man from doing this to somebody else. If you feel like someone crossed a boundary, they probably did. People don't usually question things that are appropriate and normal and as parents, I encourage you to have these conversations with your children in whatever time and way you feel comfortable. I think we can make change here. It's just about spreading awareness and taking a stand and speaking out. So thank you everybody so much for the support. I love you all. You are amazing and let's change this. So, like I always say, you got this. Okay, back to the show. I was actually wondering that about White Asparagus if it had extra benefits because it's creating them dark. I was wondering that about like white vegetables. It's so interesting. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, obviously there are some white vegetables that are very healthy. You would usually say stay away from white stuff, but really we mean like sugar and white flower but like, do you know farmerly Jones? Yeah, we had a long conversation about the white ASPARAGUS. He was like, nobody's ever asked me that before. But I just think it's so, so cool. He's the most inspiring person in the world. His book is like to me. It was beautiful and it's exciting, and I mean it was. I think it was just a triumph. And you know the problem is that, like, if books are too expensive, people don't buy them, and his book was very thick and that's because he puts so much time and effort into it. It was really great. It's so heavy because I take selfies with the book stuput on Social Media and I was tired holding it up. I was like, I can't take any more selfies. Let's workout challenging you know. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. Honestly one of my favorite conversations that I've had on the show and I just can't thank you enough for what you're doing. I really really appreciate the nuance and the detail on the science and especially just how approachable and open minded you are. I just think it's really, really valuable. So that's actually perfect. The last question that I asked every single guest on this show and it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is. So what is something that you're grateful for, grateful for my wife. You know, we have three kids, a new baby. She carried that baby for, you know, nine months. You know, this life that I have and all these exciting and wonderful things that are happening for me, none of it would have been possible without her. So I'm I'm very you know, I I recognize that this is not about me. This is about the people who support me and make me a better person and I'm very grateful for that. Well, I love that so much. I have to ask you, ever since publishing your book, How many people have randomly come up to you and what do you say? Like to high five you or handshake and say fibers fire? Do People do that to you? Well, the problem is when you publish a book in the middle of a pandemic, people stop giving high fives, which I love high fives, and or like I like I like like top secret handshakes. But I have had a lot of people say fibers fire and I do appreciate that. It really it's pretty cool. I love it. Well, thank you again so much. This has been amazing. I can't wait to read your cookbook. Oh my goodness. Hopefully we can bring you back in the future again, because this I could ask you like a million more questions. So, Um, thank you so much for your time. So we won't we won't wait. We won't wait so long this time, and I promised to not be so elusive. So thank you. Who is not you? Yeah, I do a pre street everyone hanging out with us for this nice conversation. And in the closing moment, I just want to say one last thing, which is that, like, I recognize that you have a diverse mix of people who eat different diets and listen to this, and I just want people to know. I realize I'm saying this in the very end, but, like, I don't want you to feel like I'm asking you to eat the way that I I want you to eat the way that you want to eat. I want you to find the same joy in your food that I find in my food. But I also wanted to be done in a way that lifts you up and brings you great health by optimizing your gut microbiome, and so that's kind of what I'm hoping to accomplish with all these things that I'm doing, and you know, for example, my books. Thank you so much for emphasizing that, because I mean that is truly my mission with this show is to do exactly what you just said. So thank you, thank you, thank you all right. Well, I will talk to you again in the future. Perfect. Thank you, Millie, thanks for veryone.

Thanks, bye. Thanks, Dr Been. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie avalon bio hacking podcast. For more information, you can check out my book what when wine? Lose weight and feel great with Paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine, as well as my blog, MELANIE AVALON DOT COM. Feel free to contact me at podcast at Melanie Avalon Dot Com and always remember you got this.

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