The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Episode 1 · 4 months ago

#164 - Ari Whitten: Eat For Energy, Mitochondrial Health, Low Carb Myths, Vitamin Problems, Hormetic Stress & Stress Resilience, Aging & Energy Generation, Mitochondrial Biogenesis & Mitophagy, And More!



1:40 - IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life: Join Melanie's Facebook Group At For A Weekly Episode GIVEAWAY, And To Discuss And Learn About All Things Biohacking! All Conversations Welcome!

2:00 - Follow Melanie On Instagram To See The Latest Moments, Products, And #AllTheThings! @MelanieAvalon

2:30 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get Melanie’s Broad Spectrum Complex Featuring 8 Forms Of Magnesium, To Support Stress, Muscle Recovery, Cardiovascular Health, GI Motility, Blood Sugar Control, Mood, Sleep, And More! Tested For Purity & Potency. No Toxic Fillers. Glass Bottle.

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4:55 - FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App At To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

5:40 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Non-Toxic Beauty Products Tested For Heavy Metals, Which Support Skin Health And Look Amazing! Shop At For Something Magical! For Exclusive Offers And Discounts, And More On The Science Of Skincare, Get On Melanie's Private Beautycounter Email List At Melanieavalon.Com/Cleanbeauty Or Text BEAUTYCOUNTER To 877-861-8318! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz:

10:30 - Ari's Education

14:30 - Chronic Fatigue

17:30 - Diagnostics For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

21:05 - How The Mitochondria Are Connected To Fatigue

27:30 - The Number Of Mitochondria Per Cell

27:45 - How Mitochondria Communicate

34:30 - Individual Stress Responses

35:35 - LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To To Get A Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

40:00 - The Stress Of Exercise

44:45 - Genetic Component To Mitochondrial Health

45:45 - Generational Stress

46:35 - Hormetic Stressors

53:10 - What Role Does Psychological Perception Play On Stress Resilience?

1:00:00 - What Is The Lifespan Of Mitochondria

1:03:35 - AIRDOCTOR: Clean Your Air Of Pollutants, Viruses, Dust, And Other Toxins (Including 99.97% Of Covid) At An Incredible Price! Shop At For Up To 50% Off All AirDoctor Units! 

1:06:25 - Nutrition For Fueling Mitochondria

1:09:00 - Low Carb Diets And Ketosis

1:14:30 - Insulin's Role In Body Fat Mass

1:21:15 - Meta-Analysis Of Dietary Approaches

1:24:15 - Nutrition From Whole Foods Versus Supplementation

1:26:30 - Multi-Vitamins

1:32:30 - PQQ

Mitochondria actually have a second role that is just as important as their role and as energy generators, and that is as sell defenders. Even something like a physical injury that can cause enough information in the body to create this sickness behavior, and you can train yourself to be calm and resilient in the state of physiological stress. While insulin is one of many things that are required for a fat gain, it is not the thing that regulates by fat. Welcome to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcasts, where we meet the world's top experience to explore the secrets of health, mindset, longevity and so much more. Are you ready to take charge of your existence and bio hack your life? This show it is really please keep in mind we're not dispensing medical advice and are not responsible for any outcomes you may experience from imformating tactics mind hearing. Are you ready? Let's do this. Welcome back to the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast friends, I so thoroughly enjoy today's episode. Ari witten is a wonder. I've been wanting to interview Ari for so long, ever since he had his book on the benefits of Red Light therapy. His new book eat for energy is so incredible, and we got into some really nuanced topics, maybe a little bit of controversy when it comes to things like multi vitamins and vitamin supplementations. We discussed the very interesting dual role of the Mitochondria and what that means for you, low card myths and so much more. I cannot wait to hear what you guys think of today's episode. Let me know what you think in the facebook group and when you do so you can enter to win something from me. Just find the penned announcement post in the facebook group about this episode. It's at the very top of the facebook group. Comment something you learned or something that resonated with you to enter to win something that I love. That usually ends up being a full size beauty counterproduct. You could also enter to win on my instagram. Find the Friday announcement posts there and again comment to enter to win something that I love. These show notes for today's episode will be at Melanie Avalon DOT COM, Slash Ari witten a R I W H I t t e N. those show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out if you're enjoying the show. There's one incredible, amazing thing you can do to support it, and that's by subscribing in itunes and writing an itunes review. It helps so much more than most people realize. So thank you so much in advance for that. Okay, friends, another thrilling announcement avalon x Magnesium Eight subscriptions are here and for a very limited time you can get grandfathered in to get off my magnesium eight for life. Okay, now is the time to grab this discount. Most people today are deficient in magnesium. Historically, we would get our magnesium from the soils, and our soils are so depleted in magnesium. It's been estimated in the past one years the nutritional density of the soils has gone down about it can be so important to take a magnesium supplement to support your muscles, muscle recovery, stress relaxation, cardiovascular health, blood sugar control, vowel movements, so many things. Magnesium has been known to be involved in over three hundred instematic processes in the body, and that number actually may be higher than six hundred. Basically everything that you do requires magnesium. I formulated my magnesium eight to be the very best magnesium on the market, I promise. It has eight forms of magnesium and their most bioavailable forms, as well as activated B six, which is a CO factor. It's tested multiple times for purity and potency and to be free of toxins, heavy metals and mold. It has no problematic fillers. I keep getting so many D M S and facebook posts about how this is the best magnesium you guys have ever tried. So if you want to get this magnesium in your life, now is the time. Today through September Sunday. If you sign up for a subscription, you will get off for life. You will never get this discount again. You can pause our until any time after your first order. So basically, just sign up now and then you can paste yourself for when to get it. You get three bottles every three months at that incredible price, so this saves you money and also helps produce shipping, making it more sustainable for the planet. Get this now. You can get it at avalon x dot US slash magnesium. After the twenty five you'll still be able to get a subscription, but it won't be off, so definitely grab it now. You can also use the cupon Code Melanie Avalon to get tim person off sidewide at avalon x dot us, as well as any of the products at my fantastic partner empty logic health. To get the latest updates. Definitely get on my email list at avalon x dot us, slash email list, and you can get text updates, including a one time off code. For that. Just text avalon x to eight seven, seven, eight, six, one eight, three, one eight. And of course you can also get my syrapep taste at avalon x dot us, so that would be a perfect thing to order with that cupon code. Another resource for you guys. If you struggle with food sensitivities like I do, you've got to get my APP food since guide. It's a...

...comprehensive catalog of over three hundred foods for eleven potentially problematic compounds. These include things you may be reacting to like Luten Lectins, solicillates, soul fites, by alls, oxalates, Histamine, whether or not something is a night shade and so much more. You can learn about the compounds, create your own list to share and print and finally take charge of your food sensitivities. It is a top itunes APP. I just checked and it is number twenty one in the itunes food and drinks charts. You can learn about the compounds, create your own list to share and print and so much more. GET IT AT MELANIE AVALON DOT com, slash food since guide. And one more thing before we jump in. Do you know it is one thing that might be massively affecting your Mitochondria? That is toxins, especially Indo condestructors. Do you know what? It is? One of our largest sources to toxins and Endo condstructors each and every day. It's not our food, it's not our environment, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup do to this toxicity. This includes those indocondestructors which mess with our hormones, as well as obesogens, which literally can cause our bodies to store and gain weight. Did you hear that? Friends? These compounds can make you fat. They can also be carcinogens link to cancer. All of these can be doing damage to our Mitochondria and contributing to our fatigue. That's why it is so, so important to clean this up and get skin care products that are free of this that actually work. That's why I love beauty counter. They were founded on a mission to change this problem. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on and their products really work. They make my skin look amazing. I love their overnight resurfacing peel and vitamin C crum. I use it every single night in my life. They have counter time for anti aging, countermatch for normal skin, counter control for acne. Definitely use that if you have oily prone skin and counterstart for sensitive skin. New Customers can get thirty percent off with the cupon code clean for all thirty. So that's the words clean for all the number thirty, and that coupon code is ending, by the way, on September, so definitely use it now. The link to use that is beauty counter dot com slash Melanie Avalon, and if you use that link, something really special and magical also might happen. After you place your first order, you can also join my email list at Melanie avalon dot com slash clean beauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out and you can get the latest updates and specials for me when you text beauty counter to eight, six, one eight, three, one eight for text updates. Also, join my facebook group clean beauty and safe skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share product reviews and their experiences and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. And lastly, if you're thinking of making clean beauty and safe skincare part of your future, like I have, definitely recommend becoming a band of beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon prime for clean beauty. You get tim percent back and product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that's worth way more than the price of the year long membership. It is totally completely worth it, and I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, without further ado, please enjoy this wonderful conversation with Ari whitten. Hi, friends, welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation that I am about to have. I have been wanting to have this conversation for probably about two and a half years now, ever since I launched this show, the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, at the very beginning I would get requests for guests and there's a name that has been coming up from the very beginning, I promise you, and that is Ari whitten, and he wrote a book called the ultimate guide to red light therapy, and that's why a ton of my audience was begging for an interview with him, and so I was really hoping that it could manifest. And then it came to me sort of recently, or probably a little bit a while ago now, but Ari has a new book called eat for energy, how to beat fatigue, supercharge your Mitochondria and unlock all day energy. So it's funny because I get a lot of requests on this show and when the email came in from Ari's either agent or publicist or whoever it was, I was just like yes, please book him right now. And then I read the book and it was absolutely incredible about one of my favorite topics, of course, energy production and the Mitochondria, and it's extremely comprehensive. It goes into what causes fatigue on the cellular level and then the dietary and lifestyle choices for that and then an overwhelmingly comprehensive guide to supplements related to energy production. It's really a valuable resource. It's one of those books that listeners and friends you just have to get because there's so much information in there and it's it would be really good reference book, I think, in addition to an amazing great the first time around. So definitely get that. I have. We were talking before this about just how many questions and things we could talk about, but I am just so excited. So Ari, thank you so much for being here. Thanks so much for having me, Eleani. It's an absolute pleasure. I... think most of my listeners are pretty familiar with your work, but for those who are not, you do have a bachelor of science from San Diego State University in Kinesiology. You have to advanced certifications from the National Academy of Sports Medicine as a corrective exercise specialist and a performance enhancement specialist, and I'm curious because I know sometimes the BIOS aren't that updated. Was it still recently that you completed your PhD in Clinical Psychology? Yeah, well, yeah, so there's a long story. I've done a whole lot of years of graduate school without without any fancy letters after my last name to show for it. I was in medical school for a couple of years. I left medical school because I hated the allopathic paradigm. I just couldn't take it anymore. It was making me sick to be in a hospital setting, you know, watching people with diabetes and heart disease, you know, just prescribed one drug after another, after another, on twelve, fifteen, eighteen different prescription drugs, being taught nothing a out nutrition and lifestyle, about the actual causes of their condition. I've been studying nutrition in lifestyle since I was a little kid, since I was twelve years old, and, you know, at a certain point I just couldn't stomach being in that environment anymore. Made the decision to leave, and then I went I thought I'd do a PhD program in clinical psychology. I did all three years of my coursework for that and then decided ultimately I didn't really want to be a psychologist either, and part of that there's a there's a number of aspects of that, one of which is the paradigm. There was also kind of disturbing to me because you're dealing with mental health issues and there is absolutely no discussion again of nutrition and lifestyle factors and there's a large body of evidence that we have on how nutrition and lifestyle ties into mental health and brain health. That simply isn't discussed at all when you're doing a training in psychology or psychiatry for that matter. And then I started to realize, okay, if I go, if I continue to go down this path, if I go complete my PhD at what I did, all the three years of course work, basically what I needed to do as a dissertation and internship hours, and if I do that and if I go pursue licensure, if I jump through all these hoops, then at the end of getting my licensure to practice, it has actually not only does it is it not really a boon for me, but it actually creates a limitation for me, because now if I try to integrate the nutrition lifestyle piece into what I'm doing, it's considered practicing outside of the scope of what I'm licensed to do and therefore they can revoke my licensure if I do that. So it's this very sort of counterintuitive, paradoxical thing where I'm actually more free to do what I want to do by not having that licensure than by having it. And then I'm actually, in the next few weeks, about to wrap up a master's degree in human nutrition and functional medicine. gratulations in advance. Thank you, I appreciate it. Well, knock on what but I'm sure, I'm sure you'll get that. Where are you studying that? The University of Western states. It's the only school that offers that that degree program with, you know, a master's and in functional medicine and human nutrition. Very cool. So when you do get that credential, are you still going to keep doing what you're doing now, or will that change what you're like actually doing? Job Wise? No, carry on doing what I'm doing now. To be honest, it's largely just two things. It's two. It's because there is a segment of the population that won't listen to anything you have to say unless they see some kind of impressive formal credential and, you know, written on your book or something like that. So I wanted that just to appease those people so that they'll it'll at least open owe their mind to considering what I have to say for those kinds of people who think that way. And then the second thing is if I'm going to go do something like that, to to get a credential like that, I might as well learn something along the way. And the program is very good. It has really excellent professors in a variety of different specialties, gut health in particular. The professor for that course is absolutely world class. So I figure if I'M gonna do a program to get a credential, I want to learn some stuff along the way, and I've learned some some good stuff in some areas that were not within my wheelhouse previously. Well, that is super amazing and actually this is sort of a random tangent to start on, but just talking about the psychology aspect of it. So yesterday I was watching a documentary. Have you seen unrest documentary about people with? Okay, here we go. How do you say it? Myalgic and CEPHALO militis the fancy word for chronic fatigue and CEPHALO myelitis. It's a documentary by a woman who has that. So she has like the I'm sure we're going to talk about this, you know, defining what chronic fatigue is. But she has the end of it, like she can't even...

...move and she made a whole documentary from her bed essentially about it. She was talking about how hysteria back in the was at the eighteen hundreds in France and how possibly that actually related to chronic fatigue, which was something I hadn't heard before. In what sense was she saying that? So it was a broader picture, but it was about, in terms of the medical history aspect of it, like how certain people, and women in particular, are treated by the medical profession. Yes, so basically like women getting these medical conditions or psychological conditions and being treated like it was all in their head. And but it even linked more specifically to it and that she was saying that maybe all these things have been happening throughout history, like outbreaks and hysteria, and all of this was actually related to this broader picture of inciting incidents related to chronic fits, EEK syndrome. It was very interesting that. Yeah, that's an interesting relationship there. I mean, yeah, there there's definitely a pretty ugly history around some of this in terms of the how the medical profession has treated women in some instances. Hysteria, of course, you know, it's sort of basically going hey, women are these you know, very strange, illogical creatures sometimes and they act in these crazy ways that we men can't understand, and maybe it's coming from their uterus. Let's cut out their uterus and see if that solves the problem, you know. So there's that. And then with chronic fatigue syndrome. For a long time, and this is partly due to limitations in testing technologies for a long time, but basically you could run a blood test on people with chronic fatigue syndrome and the vast majority of the time their markers will come back perfectly normal. Based on that, a lot of these doctors concluded, Hey, there's nothing truly physiologically wrong with you, this is all in your head, and so they were prescribed antidepressants and basically treated like hypochondriacs and and treated like it was all psycho somatic. And that, of course, is very wrong. We now know chronic fatigue syndrome is in fact a very real condition and we have sophistically sophisticated enough testing that we've established many, many different biochemical abnormalities in people with chronic fatigue syndrome. Questions about that actually, just to get some definitions here. Clearly has a long history, like we just discussed of not seeming like a credible disease or condition, and you just mentioned the metabolites which you mentioned in the book. They're being like six hundred or so metabolites related to chronic fatigue. So, stepping back, what is it exactly? Well, you know, this is also interesting because, despite the fact that, as I just said, we have a number of metabolites that have been linked to chronic fatigue syndrome, there is actually still no definitive test, single tests that you can do that says if you know, if you test positive on this particular marker, these two markers, then that means you have chronic fatigue syndrome. So it's still diagnosis that's largely based on symptoms, and basically the symptoms are severe, debilitating levels of fatigue combined with something called Post exertional malaise, which means that for a day or two or three following even brief outs of physical activity, even maybe moderately strenuous physical activity, someone might be pretty wiped out. They might be, you know, in an extreme amount of soreness and pain and severe fatigue and brain fog and things like that. So that symptom is, to a large extent kind of diagnostic for chronic fatigue syndrome. Now, having said all that, I really don't focus specifically on chronic fatigue syndrome specifically for a couple of reasons. One is there's a legal aspect to it. I don't want to talk about medical conditions because it can get me legally into hot water if it is if it's implied that I'm saying, Hey, here's these recommendations I'm making which can treat this specific medical condition now so. So for that reason I take things out of the realm of chronic fatigue syndrome and talk purely about fatigue or chronic fatigue, which are not medical diagnoses but a description of low levels of energy. The second reason, even more important than that, is that chronic fatigue syndrome really just represents the extreme end of that spectrum of how debilitated someone can become as a result of low energy levels. But this is not an on off switch. It's not like, Oh, you either have...

...amazing high energy levels, bouncing off the walls with energy like a little kid, or you're debilitated with chronic fatigue syndrome. There's a hundred degrees of gray, gray areas in between those two ends of the extremes and most people, most adults, are, you know, somewhere in the middle, if not maybe slightly in the direction of or moderately in the direction of chronic fatigue, without necessarily meeting the diagnostic criteria of chronic fatigue syndrome and having this severe post exertional malaise, but they have poor energy levels relative to what they had when they were in their youth. I'm glad you're talking about that because that was one of my my big questions. So on that spectrum of fatigue levels, from the beginning to the end where we might see it manifest as chronic fatigue syndrome, if we actually get down to like the Mitochondria, is it the same thing happening or is it different what's happening with the Mitochondria and not being able to create energy? Yeah, it's a good question that the principles are the same. However, you know, there's there's probably a thousand different variations on this. So for your listeners who haven't read the book, let me give a sort of brief explanation of what we're really talking about here. It's long been taught that the Mitochondria are are cellular energy generators. There in biology courses they're taught about as the powerhouse of the cell, but they're really framed, you know, whether we're talking high school biology or college university level biology or medical school biology courses, they're really kind of taught about as, Oh, they're just one of many organelles in the cell. And you know, over here's the Endoplasma curticulum and here's some licensomes and here's the Goldgi apparatus and here's the Mitochondria. And remember the Mitochondria as the powerhouse of the cell. And they're taught about as, first of all, just just one of many and in fact they're much more important than that. They're they're critically important for our physiology and they deserve a central role in the way we teach physiology, which isn't the way that physiology is taught. And that's number one. And then second they're taught about as sort of these mindless energy generators that take in carbs and fats and just sort of pump out energy in the form of a TP adnisine triphosphate. And of course they are energy generators. But what has not been taught in physiology and has not really been known. You know, we've known about Mitochondria for over a hundred years, but what has only really been uncovered in the last decade or so is that Mitochondria actually have a second role that is just as important as their role and as energy generators, and that is as cell defenders. So it turns out our Mitochondria are like the canaries and the coal mine of our body. There these exquisitely sensitive environmental sensors that are constantly trying to assess if the body is under attack and they're they're asking the question, is it safe for us to produce energy? So they're taking samples of the environment constantly and going is it safe to produce energy? Are we under attack and if if not, will produce lots of energy. If we are under attack, if we start to get signals that we are under attack, and they can sense, by the way, virtually every type of stressor or threat that you can think of, and if they start to pick up on those signals that the body is under threat or under attack, then they shift resources out of energy production towards cellular defense, and this process is fundamentally the most important thing to understand about human energy levels and human energy regulation. You know, when I first start did going down this path of of really focusing my life around the science of human energy production a decade ago, I didn't know where to start because nobody had put together a coherent synthesis scientific framework of this topic before. So I started exploring different avenues. You know, what's the relationship of sleep and Circadian Rhythm to energy? Obviously we know that if you don't sleep well, you you're you're tired the next day. What's going on there? What are the mechanisms? If you don't eat well, that ties into low energy levels. Of course, if you don't exercise, that ties into it. If you're very overweight, maybe that makes you fatigue. What are the mechanisms? And you know, I spent years just diving into each one of these topics, diving into the research, figuring out what are the physiological mechanisms? And at the end of all of those years, basically I was left with a long list of a hundred fifty plus different physiological mechanisms that in one way or another tie into the energy or you...

...know, everything from Oh a M P K and M Tour and Glucagon and insulin and blood sugar regulation, and what about testosterone? And, you know, the sex hormones and thyroid hormone and growth hormone and and Cortisol and Melatonin and neurotransmitters, Gabba and dopamine and Serotonin, you know, and and all these different physiological pathways. The analogy is this. If you look at a car and you start, you know, peeling back the layers of the car, opening it up, it would be wrong to say, oh, here's the spark plug in the engine, this is the critical piece of that makes this car go. And it would be wrong to like open up the exhausted look at the catalytic converter and be like Oh, this, this is the part that makes the cargo, and then to look at the Piston and the engine and be like no, this is the part or the engine block. Now this is the part that makes the cargo. Yet all of those pieces are important and in one way or another are indirectly involved in that car going down the street, but it isn't the none of them are the thing that is actually regulating, the most upstream thing that is regulating whether or not that engine is running, how much gas is being pumped into it and whether or not it's driving down the road slower fast, that the thing that's doing that is the person sitting inside the car and the Mitochondria are that. So it wasn't until I discovered Robert Navau's work, who runs a lab for mitochondrial medicine at the University of California San Diego, and his paper the cell danger response, where he put together a really novel scientific framework, that that was a breakthrough in our understanding of Mitochondria around this second aspect of mitochondrial functions. So again they have these two roles, energy generators and cell defenders, and that they are two sides of the same coint to the extent that they are doing one, they're turning down the dial on the other. So another way of saying that is to the extent your Mitochondria are picking up on threat or danger signals in the body, they are turning down the dial on energy production. And that is fundamentally the most upstream thing, the most important regulatory mechanism of what really controls human energy levels. Some follow up questions. One how many Mitochondria are in each cell? It varies wildly. On average it's five to two thousand, but there's some cells, like in certain parts of the brain, in the heart, in the eye, in places like that, that can have tens of thousands per cell. And do these Mitochondria, if they have this dual role and they're reacting to threats and stressors, how synchronous is that reaction in Mitochondria all throughout the body? And how encompassing does a threat I have to be to cause feelings of fatigue and so, for example, what I mean is if these mitochondria are and all the cells of our body, is it like there's one threat to a Mitochondria and one part of our body and that's all we need? Does it communicate to other Mitochondria throughout the body and in like one cell if it gets, quote, attacked or if it's senses an issue, do all the Mitochondria react the same way? Do they talk to each other? That's an excellent question and I've never been asked that as well as you just asked it, but very smart question. So Imagine, let's say respiratory infection, as just one example, where you know you have stuff going on. You have this virus that's infecting your sinus and nasal, Mucoca, Mucosa, and in the back of your throat, maybe in your lungs, and it's causing damage and inflammation in those tissues. Okay, but that respiratory virus isn't affecting your muscles, your skeletal muscles, your back muscles and biceps and triceps and legs. Right, yet it can cause fatigue systemically. To have a respiratory infection. One of one of the key symptoms of having a cold or flu or Covid is, of course, fatigue. So, and this is also true with many other kinds of things, even a physical injury can cause something called sickness behavior, and this this this term sickness behavior is actually a medical term. There's lots of studies written on it where they've examined it and humans and animal models and things like that, and it involves fatigue and lethargy and lack of motivation and depression and feeling crappy. When you're sick, you know you don't have a lot of energy, you don't feel like you're in a good mood, you don't feel driven to get up and do lots of work. You kind of just want to lay in bed it's that sort of feeling. It's actually called sickness behavior. Even something like a physical injury, like if you broke an arm or had a bad sprain or cut open your ankle or something like that, that can cause enough inflammation in the body too to create this sickness behavior. To be fair,...

...sickness behavior is also mediated a bit neurologically, not not just at the mitochondrial level. But these are just a couple of examples of many types of examples that are kind of localized in one area. But the to to answer your question more directly, the mid so first of all we have things that float around in the blood and that those things go systemic. So they can be many different kinds of things. So maybe I should first ask, well, what kinds of things can the Mitochondria actually sense? How are they sensing that there is a threat or stress or damage taking place in the body? And they can sense it. All boils down to a few things. They can sense three or four fundamental things. One is inflammatory cytokinds. So elevated levels of inflammatory cytokinds from any cause will cause some degree of shut down at the mitochondrial level. It is elevations in inflammation in the body is considered a systemic danger signal, and those inflammatory cytokinds do go systemic. Even if the injury is localized, like it's a respiratory infection or a physical injury, in one in your leg or something like that, you get systemic elevations in the blood of inflammatory cytokinds. Now, in addition to that, it can also sense oxidative stress, so elevations in oxidative stress can cause this. And cellular damage itself will cause certain signaling molecules to be released that go systemic, specifically something called pure energic signaling, and these pure energic molecules are a t p and a D P. So the energy molecules themselves that are actually produced by Mitochondria. They're supposed to be localized within the cell. You're not supposed to have a whole bunch of ATP or a DP floating around in your bloodstream. Yet it is also true of DNA, by the way. Mitochondria have their own DNA called mitochondrial DNA, and though that's also supposed to be localized in the cell. Well, it's been shown that when when you have cellular damage that occurs, you get a leakage of a t P, a DP and mitochondrial DNA leaking outside of the cell and getting into the bloodstream. This has even been shown in a field called Mitochondrial psychobiology where they subject people to psychological stress and they show elevations in mitochondrial DNA and blood stream within a matter of minutes as a result of psychological stress. So those signaling molecules. It turns out other cells have receptors for these pure energic molecules and when they sense the presence of these pure energic molecules where they're not supposed to be in the blood, floating around the body, they interpret that as a danger signal. That's how they know throughout the rest of the body, okay, there's damage being done in the body, there's there's a threat present, there's something here that's that's causing tissue damage and destruction. We're under attack, and so there is a systemic communication of those of that signaling and a systemic response to it. So to clarify, there could be a stressor and then the Mitochondria on purpose leak their DNA to tell the other mitochondria or is it just a happenstance? I don't know if it's quite if it's quite the right wording to say that they they on purpose leak their DNA and these pure energic molecules, but it is. It is a byproduct of cellular damage and the body has been wired, presumably by millions of years of evolution or God, if you prefer that, that to respond to those signaling molecules that circulate in response to cellular damage. Okay, got you. So like, as an example, just to clarify the distinction and language, like if you slice open your leg from a cut, let's say an animal attacks you and it's cuts you open. It's the Mitochondria. Don't go, Oh, let's release these pure energic molecules. They are physically damaged and ruptured and releasing them as a function of the damage, not their their decision to release them. Okay, Gotcha. And I'm really curious on the spectrum of how this could be happening, because you just mentioned, for example, that psychological stress can cause this. Then on the flip side we could have actual injuries causing this. So the way this manifests like, presumably you could have two extremes. You could have a person who actually isn't experiencing any threats, like real threats, but it's all psychological, but they're having this. Well, on one end you could have that and you could have them reacting very extremely with with the Mitochondria, with a stress response, or on the other hand, you could have somebody who's experiencing so...

...many stressors and I'm guessing their Mitochondria would just try and make two extremes not be instigating that response. Is that possible? Like like people who seemingly get hit with all of the stressors and they're just fine. Is that because their mitochondria are not reacting in a defense mode? Yeah, that is a wonderful question and I really like your questions. The answer to it is not a short one, unfortunately, but it does get into my favorite topic and I'm happy to go down this path. I love favorite topics. Hi, friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get my favorite electrolytes for free, yes, completely free, and the feedback we have received about element electrolytes from our audience is overwhelming. You guys love element and I'm so excited because our new offer allows new and returning customers to get free element and, on top of that, through super popular grape fruit flavor is back. If you've been having issues with intermittion fasting, electrolytes may just be the thing that you need. And or have you heard of something called the Keto flu? Here's the thing. The keto flu is not actually a condition. Keto flu just refers to a bundle of symptoms, headaches, fatigue, muscle cramps and insomnia that people experience in the early stages of Keto dieting. Here's what's going on. When you eat a low carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low Insulin in turn lowers the production of the hormone aldosterone. Now aldosterone is making the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. So low aldosterone on a Keto Diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate, and even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially sodium and potassium, in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. ELECTROLYTES can easily be depleted while intermittent fasting. Rab Wolf who, as you guys know, is my hero in the holistic health world, worked with the guys at Keto gains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate element recharge so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. Element recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three navy seals teams. They are the official hydration partner to team USA weightlifting. They're used by multiple NFL teams and so much more. And Element has an incredible offer just for my listeners. You can get a free element sample pack that includes all eight flavors, citrus, watermelon, orange, raspberry, mango, Chili, lemon, Habin, arrow, chocolate and raw unflavored. And the RAW unflavored, by the way, is clean, fast friendly. You can try them all completely free when you make a purchase at my link, drink L M N T DOT COM. Forward, slash melon, the avalon. You can get this offer as a first time and as a returning element customer, and I know there are a lot of returning element customers. The feedback I hear from you guys loving element is amazing. Element offers no questions asked about refunds on all orders. You won't even have to send it back. And this offer is exclusively available only through V I P element partners. You won't find this offer publicly anywhere else. So again, the link is drink L M and T DOT COM, forward slash Melanie Avalon, and we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right. Now back to the show. So you asked me earlier how many Mitochondria we have per sell, and I'll kind of circle back to that question for a moment. I gave you a simple answer to that question. Here here's a more complex answer. We have that many mitochondria per sell, roughly on average, five hundred to a thousand to two thousand, excuse me, per sell. However, it is also important to understand that those Mitochondria are dynamic and respond to their environment. And, just as you know, think of somebody who's like super skinny and anorexic versus a professional body builder. Do they have a difference in the amount of muscle fibers on their muscles, on their skeletal muscles? Yes, they have a huge difference in response to the stimuli that they've exposed their bodies to. and asked their body to adapt to. The same is true with Mitochondria. Mitochondria are not just environmental sensors, but they are because they are also these energy generators. They are tasked very directly in responding to stress and threats. So take exercise, for example. This is an easy one to think about. If you're asking your body to respond to exercise, the Mitochondria have to ram up there energy utilization, you know,...

...mainly of carbs and fats and energy production in order to meet the demand that is being placed on them to do the physical work to generate that energy so you can perform that activity. So again, they're they're being tasked very directly in responding to stressors. Okay, so keep that in mind. Now what happens if you exceed there capacity? Well, this is something I call the resilience threshold. It's basically how much stress can your Mitochondria handle? How much what is their capacity for for handling stress and for generating energy to meet the demands that's being placed on that? Okay, that's your resilience threshold. Then it directly ties into the physical size and amount of Mitochondria you have in your cells. Now getting back to this question of how many Mitochondria we have in ourselves. I said five hundred to two thousand. However, that differs dramatically between individuals and it is possible to have more like five hundred and it's possible to have more like two thousand. And to be more specific, it's been shown that on average, people lose about ten percent of their mitochondrial capacity with it each decade of life. That might not sound like that much, but to state it more directly, it's been shown that in the typical seventy year old they only have about twenty five percent of the mitochondrial capacity they had when they were young. In other words, they have lost seventy five percent of their mitochondrial energy production capacity as they've aged. To be more specific, what's happening there? It's been shown that they lose about fifty percent of the Mitochondria themselves. So the actual number of Mitochondria that are present declines by about fifty end and the energy production capacity of those individual Mitochondria that are left is cut in half by about so you do the math on that. You've reduced your your energy generation capacity at the cellular level by seventy this is like going from a Ferrari engine to u two stroke mopet engine in your cells. And how does that tie into your question? Well, it's very directly means that the person with the very small engine in their cells has a way, way lower capacity to handle demands, stress, energetic demands, metabolic demands that are being placed on that system than the the person with a Ferrari engine in their cells. Now the other aspect of this. People might be thinking, you know, wow, that that that really is crappy news that we lose so much of our mitochondrial capacity as we age. Well, the good news is this. You actually don't have to and it's been shown that in seven year olds who are lifelong athletes and exercisers, they have the same mitochondrial capacity as a young adult. They don't lose of their mitochondrial capacity. So what that tells us is that this loss of Mitochondria is not a natural byproduct of the aging process itself, but is a result of modern lifestyles, specifically lack of hormetic stress that drives this loss of Mitochondria in very much the same way that if you've ever broken a bone like an armor leg, you get a cast on and then you wear that cast for eight weeks. You get the cast sewn off your leg eight weeks later and you look down at your legs and you see that one leg is half the size of the other one. Why is that? It's because the body is ruthless about getting rid of energetically costly tissue that isn't needed for survived. So as soon as you get that cast on, within literally days, within weeks, the body is immediately going well, I guess we don't need that energetically costly tissue anymore to survive the demands that are being placed on us. Let's get rid of it. It's only a hindrance to our survival. Let's let's drop it. And the body does the same exact thing with Mitochondria. If you're not stimulating them and challenging them, they atrophy, they shrink, they shrivel, they become weak. And if you can picture what I just described happening with your muscles in just a matter of eight weeks, imagine what happens to your Mitochondria over fifty years of not challenging them adequately. Wow. Okay, I have some questions about that, but before that, one other question about the Mitochondria. Is there a genetic or an inherited component to how well they're set up to function. And since we inherit them from our mother, are are our vitality levels probably more reflective...

...of our mother than our father? It's a really good question and I actually don't know the answer to it. I don't know if anybody does. There there might be somebody who's like a mitochondrial researcher who's really looked at the mitochondrial DNA piece and what what you said is true, that we get that mitochondrial DNA from our mothers specifically, not our fathers. I would venture to guess that there is almost certainly something to what you're saying. I mean how could there not be? But I don't know of any specific research that's really examined that where I could tell you anything, any sort of specifics about you know what we know about that topic, but it's a it's a great question. You know the studies like the inherited stress factors and they say that stress travels through generations. You know a certain amount of generations. Do you know if that's related to the Mitochondria or is that something else in the epic Gino? I know that there's a neurological component to it in terms of how the brain gets wired. Certainly it's related to the epigenome, epigenome, but Mitochondria also tie very directly into into epigenetics as well. I don't know that I've ever encountered something specifically on Mitochondria as it relates to that. But yeah, and another great question that I would say I don't know if anybody knows the answer to, and I certainly don't. I'll keep it on my list to be looking for it. Speaking about these hermetic stressors and these things which challenge our Mitochondria, you mentioned exercise. I'm assuming you talk all throughout the book about these different supplements and compounds. I'm assuming red light therapy. Is there one that is stronger, like the Creme de la Creme of stimulating Mitochondria biogenesis? Is it exercise or is it all the things? Yeah, there's so. Exercise certainly is a big one. However, in people with severe chronic fatigue, x size tends to be a bad place to start because it's so energetically demanding compared to other types of hormetic stress. So to give a breakdown of some of these types of formetic stress that stimulate Mitochondria to challenge them and stimulate them to adapt. Very much like lifting a heavy weight that's challenging for your muscles. Steam creates this challenge, this stress that stimulates your body to respond to it by saying, Hey, we we need to adapt to the demands that are being placed on us by growing stronger in this area to handle this. So the Mitochondria do the same thing and there are different types of hormetic stress that do that at the Mitochondria level and they all have sort of their own unique fingerprint of specific adaptations that they stimulate. Some are more energetically demanding than others, but some of them are. Exercise, first of all, and there's different subtypes of exercise, resistance training, steady state endurance training or cardio high intensity interval training and sprint interval training. There's hypoxic practices, breadth hold practices or altitude things like that. There is heat and cold thermal stress of things like ice baths and SAUNAS. There's light hormetic stress from ultra violet light, from red and near Infra Red Light. There's also fasting and and there's certain kinds of chemicals that provide hormetic stress, things like methylene blue, for example, and there's also phytochemicals that are in a category called Zeno Hormetic stressors or Xeno hormutants, and they stimulate a lot of the same pathways involved here. Now, if you, if you just if you think about, you know how sort of energetically demanding it is to consume a phytochemical versus doing a thirty minute workout. phytochemicals a lot gentler. Now, I'm not saying they have equivalent effects, but I am saying that starting gentler or metic stressors that don't create such a huge energetic demand is a better place to go for people who are chronically ill or chronically fatigued. I Find Sauna and breath holding practices to be the most powerful place to start for people with chronic fatigue. Now another aspect to consider here is that they do have somewhat unique effects. They may not all stimulate and they almost certainly, I should say more strongly, they do not all stimulate the same degree of mitochondrial growth and biogenesis as one another. So there's for sure differences in that. There's even differences among different types of exercise, and I would say this is the only research that is that's possible to speak of, to answer that question, where they've actually tested different types of hormetic stressors in terms of the degree of Mitochondrial biogenesis stimulation.

MITOCHONDRIAL biogenesis, for people listening, is the the creation of new Mitochondria from scratch, so actually growing more Mitochondria, rebuilding from let's say, five hundred Mitochondria Percell to a thousand. It's possible to do through mitochondrial biogenesis by using hormetic stress. Now, in this paper which was done, I believe it was a thesis paper, done by a PhD, PhD student somewhere in Europe, I think in a Scandinavian country. I think the guy's name was Nicolas Side Lander. I think it was P S I lander. They looked at a number of studies. They performed a number of studies where they tested different types of exercise in different groups of people, and there was a mix of I think five studies or six studies, but they looked at steady state endurance training versus weight training, versus high intensity interval training versus and sprint interval training, and they also looked at these some of these different types of exercise in either untrained or trained individuals. So either taking people who have who are not exercisers, or taking people who are regular exercisers of various types, that also will influence the result. And they also did some modification of the state that one was in. Are you in a fed state or fasted state doing these exercises? And there was a number of findings, one of which was, for example, they found that doing a sprint interval training in a fasted state was more effective than a fed state and stimulating MITOCHONDRO biogenesis. They found that in people who are untrained, doing really any type of exercise will stimulate plenty of Mitochondro biogenesis. But the more trained you become, the more you need to this is a bit of my own extrapolation, but the more you need to do something different compared to something novel, novel stimulus on your body, novel challenge compared to what you are used to, what your body is used to, and I would say, you know, the other sort of key finding from this research was that in trained people and people who were already trained, I believe they tested endurance athletes and maybe also weight training people are doing resistance exercise they found that sprint interval training was highly effective in inducing mitochondrial biogenesis, more so than doing steady state interval steady state cardio or resistance exercise was in those already trained people. So that's a very sort of brief overview off the top of my head from a paper that I haven't looked at in a couple of years. No, it's super helpful and I'm just thinking about how so many of the daily habits I do are unified by this mitochondria concept. Like I do a cryotherapy session typically every day and Fred Sauna Red Light. I do fasting every day. The exercise piece is the piece. I don't have like a concentrated exercise routine, but I feel like it should probably be integrating interval training into it. Another question about this. What role does the perception play? So, for example, even with exercise, I guess, stepping back actually a little bit before that, do the Mitochondria just react and do all of this on a cellular level, or is there also a neurological perception piece to every single hermetic stress? So like if you're exercising and you are, I think you're doing it better or you embrace it like does that have a better effect than if you don't? And with psychological stressors, if you see them as building resilience versus not? What role does the conscious mind play and all of this? Yeah, I have to say you you asked some of the best questions that I've ever had from an interviewer so broad goo on that. This is another really excellent question. And yes, there is. There is an effect there. I don't know that any study has has quantified it exactly at the at the mitochondrial level. I'M gonna step back for a second. I mentioned a study before about how psychological stress was shown to induce leakage of Mitochondrial DNA into the bloodstream, and this is from a field of research called Mitochondrial psychobiology, looking at the link between the mind and Mitochondria. This particular study, they it's kind of a funny design. They basically asked people to get on stage and do public speaking. And you know, people have a tremendous fear of public speaking. Most most people fear it more than they fear death. And in addition to having them get on stage into public speaking, they had heckler's in the crowd basically shouting, you know, profanities or in personal insults and attacks and and booze. And you know, it was all simulated. But they subjected people to this, to this...

...state of psychological stress, and they showed my leakage of mitochondrial DNA within a matter of minutes. But you can also imagine that if somebody wasn't particularly stressed by that, let's say they thought it was fun. Let's say they were used to public speaking or they're a stand up comedian and it's no big deal for them. They've they've done it thousands of times. It doesn't doesn't even change their heart rate to get up on stage in front of people. You can imagine that their physiological response is going to be considerably different. And if they don't have this intense surge of all these stress hormones and this intense stress reaction, they probably wouldn't have a leakage of mitochondrial DNA in the bloodstream. So, you know, extrapolating from from that kind of thinking, we can certainly deduce that one's perceptions greatly changed. This now on a on a day to day level. It's also the case that you know, just in our daily lives, in our daily lives certain things which might be stressful to one person might stress another person. And you know, or the same event from day to day might stress you or not stress you, and so perception matters, of course, in a big way. Whether you're getting into a stress response or not has very real physiological effects, and we even know that from this field of Mitochondrial psychobiology. It ties the mind ties into the Mitochondria within a matter of seconds. So yes, is the answer, certainly. Now the other layer to this is that the attitude that you're bringing into hormetic stress is really it's a golden opportunity to do something very profound at the physiological level and at the level of of what's going on in your mind, because what you're doing is yourself imposing stress. In this particular case, you are choosing voluntarily to subject yourself to a physiological stressor, as compared with just, you know, you're going about your your daily life and somebody cuts you off, or you know your boss is giving you crap, or you know, just the happenstance of life. In this case we are deliberately, intentionally, voluntarily subjecting ourselves to this type of physiological stressor, in Uh in a controlled and systematic way. And what happens if you let's let's use the the ice but ice tub as an example of this. What happens if you go in that ice bath and you are going in and you're going, I hate this, oh my gosh, it's so cold, it's so uncomfortable, Oh my God, why am I doing this? Versus if you're breathing, if you center your mind, if you calm yourself down, you get in the TUB, put yourself into a peaceful place. Are Those two things different physiologically? Yeah, absolutely so. What you're doing when you're doing that is actually creating your liberally exposing yourself to the physiological stress while also controlling your mind state. And what you can essentially do as a result of this is you can self inoculate yourself against stress and you can train yourself to be calm and resilient in the state of physiological stress, so that you're you're disconnecting the hormonal stress response from certain reactions that you have to it. So, in other words, we all are responding reflectively to discomfort, to pain, to stress in this way. This this type of metabolic stress, whether it's exercising and feeling this intense burn in your muscles and being fatigued, or whether it's the intense heat and discomfort of the sauna or whether it's the pain and discomfort of an ice tub. The you get a strong response of stress hormones, adrenaline, nor peer in Cortis, all things like that. And then, and then, in response to that, that creates certain psychological effects where we have reactions to get out, get ourselves out of that situation. Our heart rate speeds up, we want to we want we're annoyed, we're angry, we're unhappy, we're uncomfortable, we want to move away from this painful stimulus. And what you're doing is you're calming all of that energy down and training yourself to be able to physiologically experience the hormonal state of stress, that stress physiology, and disconnect it from that reflective mind response. You against self, inoculating yourself against stress. You're training yourself to be resilient under stress. I'm glad you've talked about just how fast that DNA leakage can occur. I'm super curious all of these effects on the Mitochondria, like what is the lifespan of a Mitochondria and how... does it turnover? And when we're doing these things, how fast can we make new Mitochondria? And you talk about in the book when we go to sleep, we have my top GY and we make new Mitochondria. Do we replace all of our Mitochondria like so he's kind of like you know how they say that every seven years you're an entire new body? How long would it take for you to have entire New Mitochondria? Another question I don't know if anybody knows the answer to. I think that Mitochondria like very much like cells. Well, actually, let me step back. This is a better place to start and answering your question. The idea that our body replaces itself every seven years and we have all new cells every seven years is actually a myth. It's not true. I thought you're going to say that mythbuster. So the truth is we have cells that replace themselves every few days and we have other cells that I believe our thought to live a lifetime in the brain that I think stick around for decades and someone can the answer to this particular question. I'm going a bit off the top of my head about things that I've heard and read over the years. So I'm none of this is top of mind as far as like looking at actual research on this, but my general understanding of physiology is that some cells replace themselves every few days, for example, like gut gut cells in the inner lining of the Gut. Other cells, like neurons in the brain, can last decades. Can live decades, if not our whole life. So and then there's many other types of cells that are somewhere in between that. So Yeah, the myth that our bodies replaced itself every seven years. Mitochondria probably have something similar going on. There's probably Mitochondria that are much more dynamic than others, depending on the specific cells and tissues that they're in. They've got a lot more going on in terms of and it's not so much replacing themselves. It's more like what's called fission and fusion and my top Gy and and Mitochondria biogenesis. All of these are sort of dynamic processes that are constantly reshaping our Mitochondria and ourselves. So we we have processes that are involved in stimulating mitochondrial growth. We have processes that are involved in stimulating Mitochondria to divide and then create more Mitochondria. We have processes that stimulate mitochon separate mitochondria to combine and form bigger Mitochondria, fusion, and we have processes that are clean up processes, like Mitopagy, that are quality controlled processes to identify chunks of Mitochondria or entire Mitochondria that are dysfunctional, that are unhealthy, and then to either break off that chunk where, let's say, the membrane of that particular Mitochondria on the left side of it has become damaged and depolarized, and so break off that chunk and do this fission and then basically send the dysfunctional part over to a lysosome for degora station and breakdown. So we're cleaning up that MITOCHONDRIA, only leaving the healthy part there and getting rid of the unhealthy, dysfunctional part. So it's it's not quite as simple of a question as saying like how often are mitochondria replacing themselves or creating new ones? There's there's a constant daily dynamism as far as all of these growth and fusion and fission and my too, fag processes. So I think that question is probably impossible to answer, but it's better to think of it in terms of it's it's always shifting and dynamic. Hi Friends, I am obsessed with clean air and I'm about to tell you how you can get fifty percent off my new favorite air purifier brand. Did you know that in two thousand nine less than of the thousand chemicals registered for commercial use had undergone basic testing for safety? This is very troublesome. 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...the air. The auto setting on my unit is incredible. It automatically adjust the fan speed according to the contaminants in the air. And yes, it knows because when I start cooking it kicks into high speed. If you have kids, the buttons can be locked. The filters are super easy to purchase and replace. Something I love about air doctor. No Wifi or Bluetooth. Some people want Wifi and Bluetooth. I do not. I'm always trying to minimize that. This has got none of that and they are much, much cheaper than other high quality air purifiers out there. Before Air Doctor I was just using Alan, but honestly, air doctor rivals that at a much better price. Air Doctor has one of the best offers for any product that I love. You can get up to fifty percent off with my link. Yes, up to fifty off just go to Melanie avalon dot com slash air doctor. The discount will be auto applied at that link. That's Melanie avalon dot com slash air doctor for up to fiff automatically applied. Friends, if you don't have air purifiers in your life, get them in your life now. You want to clean the air that you're living in and I cannot recommend enough checking out air doctor and I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right. Now back to the show. Fueling all of these processes, so creating these new Mitochondria and doing all those cleanup processes and all of that. Your book is called eat for energy. So what is the role in nutrition for fueling all of this? That's a big topic. I just wrote three plus pages on that. I know. I know listeners. Listeners get the book. It's all in there the way I break it down in the book and I'll give kind of an overview here and we can dive into specific aspects of this in terms of how nutrition ties into this story of mitochondrial function. There there's multiple different mechanisms of how nutrition relates to mitochondrial health, mitochondrial growth, mitochondrial function or mitochondrial harm and mitochondrial shutdown. So in in the book I break it down in terms of chapter one is explaining all these things I talked about here about how Mitochondria Work and how they energy production and cellular defense are two sides of the same coin. To the extent they're doing one, they're not doing the other. Okay, from there, Chapter Two is on Circadian Rhythm. So Circadian Our Circadian Rhythms. We've got a central clock in the brain that's primarily responsive to light inputs and we've got peripheral clocks. This is a newer scientific discovery. We've got peripheral clocks throughout the tissues of our body that are primarily responsive to food inputs. And the Circadian Rhythm then impacts upon mitochondrial function in many different ways, which we can talk about if you want to dive into that one. And then the next chapter is all about body composition, so how having too little muscle and especially excess body fat, ties into mitochondrial function. The next one is all about blood glucose control, so how hyperglycemia and hyperglycemia high blood sugar causes mitochondrial dysfunction and shut down. The next chapter is all about gut health. The next one is all about brain health, and there there are multiple mechanisms going on at those levels as well how those tie into mitochondrial function. And then the final two chapters of the book are on energy, superfoods and supplements that enhance mitochondrial function. So I think in the interest of time, what I might do is there's just so much content and there's so much information and listeners just have got to get the book. Would you be okay if I just ask you some like just random questions I have from all of this? This is just things I'm just dying to ask you. So well, this is a big question which probably doesn't have a simple answer, and I know that you have opinions about this. There's so much debate about low carb diets, ketogenic diets, low fat high carb diets. So if you're in a chatogenic state or not, what are your thoughts on that and its roll with the Mitochondria and glucost burning versus not? Yeah, I guess my my way of answering that question is well, let me let me say this. I think that there's been a lot made of this topic that isn't grounded and good scientific evidence there's been really like this whole kind of ideology and philosophy and almost like dietary religion and cult that's been made out of some of these ideas and theories about, you know, the differences and how our selves or Mitochondria Process carbs versus fats and keytones. And my my biggest gripe with it is that most of the claims, the original claims that the low carbon Keto camps were founded upon, have turned...

...out to be not true. There's a there's a lot of aspects to this, but the I'll give you a couple examples. One is like the idea that all of our hunter gatherer ancestors, human ancestors, eight low carb diets or ketogenic diets and and that fats or or keytones are our bodies preferred fuel source. These things are are just plain wrong. We can look at lots of analysis of ancestral human diets. There's been studies by, for example, Stefan Lindeberg, who wrote a textbook around his travels around the world decades ago to go see many of these hunter gatherer tribes that still exists in the world today. None of them eat ketogenic diets. Many of them eat diets that are fifty, sixty, seventy even carbohydrate. So that aspect of it is false. The other aspect that these things are are preferred fuel source is also false. When the body has carbohydrates, it preferentially burns carbohydrates and virtually all tissues of the body, and so it's it's just simply a distortion to claim that the body is preferring fats or keytones. It clearly isn't. If it has carbohydrates available, it uses them preferentially over fats and keytones. Even the inuit are not on a Ketogenic Diet, you know, and they live in a place where almost no plant foods grow and they number one. They go to great lengths to obtain the few plant foods like berries, that are available to them and when they eat fresh meat they actually get enough carbohydrates in the form of Glycogen, in the form of the fresh meat that's stored in that muscle tissue to keep them out of Ketogenesis. So and then I'll just as maybe one other layer, let's do two other layers to this. One is the idea that, you know, it was kind of promoted for many years that if you were running on fats for fuel, that you'd have just amazing energy levels and you have amazing endurance and your sports performance would be vastly superior. And and and those things have been tested. You know, we've tested people in low carb and Ketogenic diets versus higher carb diets in various kinds of athletic performance and the claims have not held up at all. In fact, best case scenario, in steady state endurance racing, like, let's say running a marathon, people who are running on fat can perform as well as people who are running on carbohydrates. But the higher the performance, the higher the intensity the activity, the more that car having carbohydrates in your diet provides an athletic performance advantage. And then you know certain specific studies like Finny and Volk, are researchers that popularized, were sort of instrumental and popularizing low carb keytogenic diets, and there's some distortion in what they did. I don't remember the exact name of the study, but it was a specific study, I think, that they did in cyclists where they put people on this low carb keutogenic diet and they showed on average it improved performance in the low carb Ketogenic group relative to the Higher Carb Group. But when you actually dug into the specifics of the data, what you found was that, I forget the number of participants they had, maybe sixteen or twenty or something like like that participant. Almost all of the participants, with the exception of one or two in the low carb keutogenic group, had declines in their performance and then one or two specific individuals had these massive improvements in their performance that were unlike the other of individuals. And when you average out the numbers, the magnitude of the effect for that one person who had this enormous improvement was enough to pull the average age of the entire group slightly ahead of the carbohydrate group. And so you could make a claim based on that sort of statistics that Oh, the low carb group performed better, but in fact nineteen of the twenty people in the low carb group performed worse. But you know you can do these kinds of misleading statistical calculations to make whatever claim you want to make. So you know there's a lot of stuff like that that's gone on. And then the last thing I'll say, is probably the biggest thing, is you know, the bulk of it was founded around the idea that around the carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity, which is basically the idea that insulin is a fat storing hormone and insulin is the thing that's regulating body fatness and carbs cause you to produce more insulin, therefore carbs cause you to gain fat, and if you just lower your carbs, then you lower your insulin and therefore you lose fat. And this... logical enough, and I actually adhered and promoted that diet for for many years until it was tested, until I discovered research back in two thousand and thirteen, thanks to the work of obesity researcher Stephan Guillena, who was writing about that topic back then, and he educated me like on on the actual research that tested that and showed, which showed that I was wrong. And that body of evidence has continued to accumulate over the last decade, continuing to show the same thing. And basically what it shows is that, while insulin is one of many things that are required for a fat gain, it is not the thing that regulates body fatness. So, in very much the same way as the analogy I gave before, the spark plug or the Piston or the catalytic converter is not the thing that regulates whether the car goes down the street, but it is one part of the overall car that allows it to function. And basically what this body of research shows, and and it's it's most directly tested in what's called Metabolic Ward Studies, where they give people the same amount of calories in each group but different macronutrient ratio. So you give people, let's say, a seventy carbohydrate diet and that's five percent fat, versus a seventy percent fat diet that's five percent carbohydrate, but they both have the exact same number of calories. You can show that there are dramatic differences in the amount of insulin being produced, but if you measure them several weeks later, you show no, no discernible difference in body fat whatsoever. They have the exact the exact same levels of body fat. That you can do the experiments in reverse too, and overfeeding studies feed people a high carb versus a low carb high fat diet, overfeeding them asking them to gain fat. Does the group eating carbs gain more fat? No, they gained the same amount. So these studies have been done at nauseum. They've even been done by Gary Tobbs's institute them cells, which collected many, many millions of dollars to fun research with the intention to prove his carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity. And what they actually found in studies by Kevin Hall funded by Nucy, was that it disproved the hypothesis. So anyway, I could, I could go on. There's also other aspects of that fat gain and fat loss discussion, but the short version of it is that pretty much all of the central claims about the superiority of low carb and ketogenic diets in terms of fat loss and athletic performance and it being our ancestral fuel and all these kinds of things are just simply wrong and they've there's lots of evidence showing that they're wrong. None of that means that low carb or ketogenic diets are bad. I'm not saying they're bad or that you should avoid them. In fact, I think that it's a smart idea to at least cyclically go into low carb diets, just like I think it's if you're on a low carb Ketogenic Diet. I think it's cyclically a good idea to go off of it, but it's it's one way of doing things that has certain advantages for certain demographics, maybe diabetics, O beast diabetics in particular. But many of the central claims are not not our distortions that are refuted by the scientific evidence. Yeah, it's definitely an ongoing age old, it seems, debate at this point and I think my perspective on it now because I as well was very steeped in the low carb Keto world for a bit and now I have a slightly different perspective and I actually eat a really high carb diet. But it seems like I agree that when it's in controlled like calorie controlled, metabolic word type study, that they seem to be the same with their effects. I just wonder if the real world applications, if some people just respond better to one versus the other. And even like in that study you talked about where the data was misleading because they averaged together the numbers. So it's like even in that study the two people who did really great on the the low car so are they just more suited in their life to follow that type of lifestyle? Yeah, well, in that particular study the most likely explanation was that it was an anomaly. Maybe the guy. The first time the guy tested he was sick or something like that, or just had a horrible day or had terrible sleep deprivation the night before and so had a horrible performance and then the next time he tested he performed much better. He was in a better place or whatever. There's also something called, I forget that the term, but it's it's basically like test retest improvements. So once you already have some familiarity with the test, the second time you do it you perform a lot better. And there also can be individual variation and that kind of thing. But to your point, yeah, it's almost certainly the case that certain individuals do respond better to one way of doing things over another, whether it's exercise or whether it's diet. So yeah, I would say there's certainly truth in what you're saying and it is very likely that certain individuals would find a particular way of doing things like I...

...mean I know people that you know. I've had some clients over the years who have done a Vegan Diet with enormous success, despite the fact that I've advised them not to do a purely vegan diet, but they're doing awesome on it. I've had other people that have gone low carb Keto and are doing amazing and they find that when they eat a Vegan diet or a high carb diet, they don't do nearly as well. They feel tired or they have trouble with their blood sugar regulation or they have trouble managing their appetite, they're much more prone to overeating. So for sure those individual variations exist. I don't want to misattribute something to Kevin Holt. Like there was one review that was really expansive and looking at all of these low carb versus low fat studies and the conclusion was that they're basically identical. But then if you look at the actual breakdown, at the data, it seemed like it was really heterad genius like sort of it was sort of like an average situation. I think, and I'm glad you brought this up because I meant to mention it earlier, but there have been, said, several Meta analyzes of different dietary approaches, low car versus low fat diets, as well as even like name diets like Atkins versus ornish, versus the zone versus South Beach, and things like that, and those generally conclude that the differences between those weight loss outcomes are very minor, despite very big differences in macronutrient ratios between the diets, emphasizing my point that the hype around carbs and fats of the diets has largely been way over exaggerated in terms of its importance. But the one that I think you're referring to as a two thousand and eighteen study called Diet fits, I believe, and it was a really groundbreaking study, because it's by far the best study on the low carb high fat stuff that's ever been done for a number of reasons. It involved a huge number of participants for an unpressed length of time in a randomized controlled study. So normally those kinds of studies, because they're so expensive to to do, they last maybe, you know, three weeks, six weeks, eight weeks, twelve weeks, sixteen weeks. This one was a year long and it was also remarkable in the number of participants, I think over six thousand participants that they had in the study, and it was also remarkable in the sense that they actually gave good dietary advice which, unlike a lot of the studies which just kind of prescribed, you know, kind of crappy diets, or or just prescribe macronutrient ratios without much focus on dietary quality, or they don't match for protein, which is another huge confounding variable which is the main reason why certain studies show low carb diets are superior. It's because they're higher in protein and they didn't control for that variable. But the this study gave good dietary advice in the sense that they advised people to eat whole processed foods for the most part, whether they were in the low carb or low fat group, and and they I think they maybe also came close to matching for protein intake as well. And so, you know, at the end of twelve months, basically they showed that there was no significant difference between weight loss outcomes on low carb versus low fat diets, which is very consistent with the overall body of evidence. However, to your point, I think there was significant heterogeneity in the in terms of the individuals, and some did indeed lose more weight on either the low carb or low fat diets. Might be a bit of individuality, but there's definitely a lot of myth busting. That needs to happen. So I'm glad we're having this conversation. Okay, just some random rapid fire questions. So, listeners, like I mentioned, and eat for energy. There's in every chapter there's all of these compounds and nutrients and supplements that can affect all of these different factors. Is and I'm curious because you do talk about a lot of individual nutrients. Do you have thoughts on nutrients from whole foods form versus supplements, versus, like I v S or injections, for example, like I go to a place called restore where they have a lot of intermuscular injections that I like to get. Do you know if those are more beneficial? For getting things they'll have like cocutin and Carnentine and things like that? To be honest, I wouldn't mess with it really. Yeah, and if you try to look at the research you'll find that there's almost no research on it now. And you know, for me as a general principle, and I know there's maybe going to be some like natural paths and and and other doctors who do that kind of work that might object to what I'm going to say and they they are really fans of that, so that's fine, but as of right now the body of evidence on it is really extremely unimpressive. There's really no compelling research on it and as a general principle, if you're going to break...

...the surface of my skin barrier, there better be a compelling reason for doing that. This is I vys and injections. Yes, I would say, in general now, and maybe an exception is b twelve, and the distinction here is bioavailability. If if something has poor bioavailability orally, there is good reason to inject it. And however, if you don't have that problem with oral bioavailability, I would argue you should not play around with directly injecting it, because now you're introducing it into the body in an unnatural way. The way it's designed to enter is orally, whether we're talking, you know, we're talking Carnitine, for example, or like poeic acid or something like that. So yeah, I I don't think until there's pelling data showing that injected or I vy, you know, glutath ione and cocuten and other b vitamins and things like that, with the exception of B twelve, have some kind of benefit above and beyond what can be got from oral I wouldn't mess with anything that does injection or Ivy. That's my my personal approach. Again, I know that there's going to be Docs who do that work who disagree with me that. That's fascinating. And on the flip side, you do seem to have a pretty favorable view on multi vitamins, if they're the correct one, right, am I putting words in your mouth? No, no, I'd say that's accurate. Yeah, multi vitamins are very mixed bag because there's a lot of cheap, crappy ones that are using synthetic forms of vitamins, non optimal forms, for example, like d one Alpha Toca ferroll for vitamin E as instead of mixed Toka ferrels, and we have research showing actually harm from that. So there's good reason, I would say, to avoid multi vitamin supplement that is cheap multi vitamin supplement that's doing that kind of thing. Synthetic, non optimal, non methylated forms of B vitamins, a scorbic acid as opposed to natural sources of vitamin C makes a difference as well. Yeah, there's a number of things to be cautious about when it comes to multi vitamins, but if you are getting a good one from a reputable company, and I make one. But there's other companies like dirty jeans open. Yes, so his brand seeking health is excellent. He knows how to formulate great stuff. Thorn makes a good multi multi vitamin and mineral supplement. There's there's a few other companies as well, but can definitely avoid cheap ones. And if you get a good quality one. Yes, I do think that there is compelling evidence to suggest that it's associated with lower risk of various diseases, longer lifespan and, in the case of chronic fatigue, that it's been shown own to create significant improvements in sleep quality and energy levels in the span of a few weeks. Wow. Hi Friends, so what I'm about to say may include some disturbing content, so if young ones are listening, you may want to skip ahead. On Valentine's Day two, I experienced sexual battery by a man at a massage parlor. I felt so helpless and so scared while it was happening and afterwards I was really, really scared to tell anybody. I'm so glad that my friends encouraged me to tell the police and I'm so glad that the police believed me and that the man is now in jail and ever since sharing my story, you guys have been so supportive. So many people have applauded me for telling the police, saying that something like that had happened to them too, and they never told anybody. I started looking into the statistics and they are pretty shocking. So sexual assaults are most likely the most prevalent crime in the US and they are also the most underreported. Every sixty eight seconds, an American is sexually assaulted, so I was one of those. Every nine minutes that victim is a child. Meanwhile, only twenty five out of every one thousand perpetrators will end up in prison, and only five percent of sexual assault reports filed have ever been proven false. Two of all juvenile sexual assault victims are female. Of Adult Rape Victims are female, and in two thousand nineteen over six hundred and fifty two thousand, six hundred and seventy six women were raped and nearly one million women were victims of sexual assault. I believe this is a huge, huge problem happening in our society. It's one of the crimes where there's not usually evidence it's not like a physical object was stolen or somebody outwardly injured or killed. It's basically your word against the perpetrator, and so it can be really, really scary to tell somebody and stand up for yourself, but I want to encourage you that we can change this. We can speak up. So if something happens to you, I encourage you. Please, please, tell somebody. I promise you...'re not crazy. The thing that really convinced me to go to the police was it wasn't so much about me, but about stopping this man from doing this to somebody else. If you feel like someone crossed the boundary, they probably did. People don't usually question things that are appropriate and normal, and as parents, I encourage you to have these conversations with your children in whatever time and way you feel comfortable. I think we can make change here. It's just about spreading awareness and taking a stand and speaking out. So thank you everybody so much for the support. I love you all. You are amazing and let's change this. So, like I always say, you got this. Okay, back to the show. I'm so fascinated by it because I actually recently launched my own supplement line as well, and I've just always been so torn about the multifidemin concept, so it was interesting to read your thoughts on it. One more supplement question. I'll say that I for actually many years, was opposed to them and didn't take them myself. What made you change your mind? Learning about why there's some negative data on it, because there is negative data on multi vitamins, you know, and and there's also negative data on a number of individual vitamins like vitamin C and Vitamin E and things like that, not being associated with longer life and in some cases even creating elevated risk for, let's say, prostate cancer or something like that. And it's it's almost always for the reason that I just talked about that they're using non optimal forms of these these compounds. So when I learned that and I started to look at some of the evidence on, you know, positive effects of these compounds and then how to mitigate the downsides by simply, you know, doing things like mixed Toka ferrels instead of d one alpha, natural sources of vitamin C as opposed to a scorebic acid and you know, things of that nature. That the optimal balance between these these nutrients as well, for example, zinc and copper, and some formulations they don't have copper or they don't have adequate amounts of copper, or some formulas they have iron, and I wouldn't recommend using iron in the formula. So, you know, once you avoid issues like that, then I think it's a perfectly great idea to use them, particularly given how rampant nutrient deficiencies are. Well, that is definitely a paradigm shift for me. So thank you. I'M gonna have to look into it even more. Something that blew my mind. It was it's a supplement that I tried like years ago and I haven't heard about a lot recently. But is it true that P q q is the most potent Mitochondria biogenesis stimulator? Most likely? Yeah, as far as what's been studied, it's hard to say definitively because, you know, a lot of these things haven't been compared directly had in head to head trials under the exact same circumstances. But yeah, it's it's widely regarded to be an extremely potent stimulator of Mitochondria biogena. You might have to make that in my line. Well, thank you so much, Ari. This has been absolutely amazing. I just can't thank you enough for your work and all that you're doing and can't recommend enough that listeners get your books. The last question I ask every single guest on this show and it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is, especially after everything that we talked about. So what is something that you're grateful for? I would say, you know, there's so many things that I'm I'm grateful for. You know, right now I'm actually in this beautiful house, this Airbnb, that's ocean front, so I'm staring out at the ocean on a beautiful sunny day and looking out at a surf spot and I'm I love surfing, I love being in the ocean, so I'm hugely grateful for that. I'm grateful for the Sun and all of the amazing benefits that it has on our physiology, something I've written a lot about and plan to write more about, and I'm enormously grateful for my chill writ I am my I have a five year old son and my daughter just turned three yesterday and we just had a beautiful party for her and yeah, that's they're really the joy of my life. So I would say above all, that's what I'm grateful for. I have to ask happy late birthday to your daughter. Was it a themed party? No, not really, but she does love UNICORNS. I love UNICORNS too. That's fabulous. Well, thank you so much, Ari. This has been absolutely amazing. I I really I can't wait for listeners to hear this. I love following your work. I look forward to your future work. Are you working on your next book? I am. Yeah, I'm going to hear from Hay House actually in the next few days, what their their team's vote is for the topic of my next book, but it's looking like it's going to be on hormetic stress and Mitochondra. Oh my goodness. Well, hopefully you can come back for that because that would be absolutely amazing. Yeah, I would love to and I have to compliment you. I think of all the I don't...

...know how many hundreds, maybe I'm in the thousands of interviews at this point, but I would say you asked some of the best questions of any interviewer I've ever had. So well done on that. Thank you so much. That makes my that makes my week. I'm going to be so, so happy. Well, thank you. This has been absolutely amazing. I wish you the very best of the rest of your day and I will talk to you later. You too, Melanie. It was a pleasure. I look forward to the next one. Thanks, sorry, bye bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Melanie avalon bio hacking podcast. For more information, you can check out my book what when wine? Lose weight and feel great with Paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine, as well as my blog, MELANIE AVALON DOT COM. Feel free to contact me at podcast at Melanie Avalon Dot Com and always remember, you got this.

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